Effects of cheese & non-effect of insulin

[barrym]

OK, this isn't a totally scientific study, but I'm quite clear that this happens.

A bit of background. Insulin dependant, antibody test inconclusive so could be T1 or T2 not that it matters. I exercise a fair bit walking and cycling. Retired.

I get by eating quite normally using a ratio of 25:1 am and noon, and 20:1 at tea time. For a while I have not been eating after 6pm which has given me a good going to bed level, and a good waking one. Occasionally low but manageable.

On Saturday night I had a handful of grapes (say 10 grapes = 10 carbs) and some cheese, quite a bit of cheese, say 100g, but according to the packet negligible carbs.

I know that as the evenings are an inactive period I have to take a much higher dose and so I took 1.5 units!!! Nevertheless at bedtime I was 10.7! So I took another 2.5. This brought me down to 6.0 by Sunday morning.

Sunday evening I thought as an experiment I'd have cheese but no grapes. Took no insulin and by bed time I was 9.3, so I took 3 units. This morning I was 8.1.

So my question really is why is cheese taking me so high? I eat it at lunch time, and teatime and it doesn't have the effect. And why is insulin so ineffective or rather why an I so insensitive to it when inactive?

Is this normal and do others find this?

Thanks.

 

[Daphne917]

I'm Type 2 diet controlled so am totally unfamiliar with insulin etc but could it be the amount of protein in the cheese?

 

[phoenix]

There are several reasons.
1) when you are active some of the glucose can get into muscle and skeletal cells without any insulin at all. (these cells have glucose transporters(GLUT4) that 'open' the way . Some of these transporters have receptors that respond to insulin but some respond to muscle contraction) When people with T1 exercise they frequently have to reduce the insulin or become hypo. When you are less active then you have to rely on insulin to get glucose into the cells.
2) You are always producing some glucose from the liver, if insulin levels are high then it isn't released into the blood circulation but if they are too low then glucose will be released. Your basal insulin is there to deal with that but is a bit of a blunt instrument because it doesn't alter according to need.
3) Protein from the cheese can actually provide the material for the production of this glucose
4)High fat meals may reduce insulin sensitivity and consequently glucose production from the liver increases. see http://www.joslin.org/dietary-fat-can-affect-insulin-requirements-in-type-1-diabetes.html
and the paper
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/4/810.full

 

[barrym]

Wow, those papers are fascinating. I knew about the slow down of carb processing by adding fat, but not the complexity of the situation as described here.

I think I'll try lower fat all round and see how it goes. Just seems counter intuitive with all the evidence of LCHF etc. I've been extolling the virtues of full fat whole foods for ages. Looks like I may have to eat my words, yummy

Cheers
Barry

 

[Daibell]

Hi. Yes, as Phoenix says it is complicated. Certainly fat slows carb absorption and also itself raises blood sugar a bit as do proteins. Somehwere on the web are charts showing how much to increase your Bolus to cover fats and proteins.

 

[noblehead]

@barrym, why not just go back to not don't eating after 6pm, I too find my night-time bg levels are much more stable (and predictable) when I don't eat after 6-7pm.

 

[reidpj]

Wow, those papers are fascinating. I knew about the slow down of carb processing by adding fat, but not the complexity of the situation as described here.

I think I'll try lower fat all round and see how it goes. Just seems counter intuitive with all the evidence of LCHF etc. I've been extolling the virtues of full fat whole foods for ages. Looks like I may have to eat my words, yummy

Cheers
Barry

The high fat meal was a pizza with added fat, and, because the study only lasted a couple of days, the subjects weren't ketone adapted. The study compared a high carb meal with a little added fat, with a high carb meal with more added fat. So, it would seem that if you are eating a high carb diet then you may need to up your insulin if you add a lot of fat. LCHF's virtue is still intact

 

[barrym]

@barrym, why not just go back to not don't eating after 6pm, I too find my night-time bg levels are much more stable (and predictable) when I don't eat after 6-7pm.

I'm weak but will try!

 

[LucySW]

Hi Barry, Have you read this thread? Totally relevant.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/insulin-load-index-most-ketogenic-foods.75704/

 

[barrym]

Thanks for that Lucy, quite an eye-opener. I need to reread it a few times to get a fuller understanding.

 

[tim2000s]

Hi,

These are interesting hypotheses. I wonder if there is a study out there comparing results of fractionated lipoprotein test levels on resulting bloodsugars under a standardized diet by Types 1, 1.5 and 2? If so, could I have a link to an article?

Here's a starter for you http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/50/4/773.short that isn't exactly what you asked for but starts to break into discussion of the whys.

In reality if go and use google scholar (https://scholar.google.co.uk/schhp?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5) and have a bit of a search. There are some articles looking at lipoprotein levels and the ingestion of various foods.

 

[Nessinoo]

Wow! And I wanted a simple life!

(T1 diabetic for 36 years on DAFNE)

 

[Susikav]

The high fat meal was a pizza with added fat, and, because the study only lasted a couple of days, the subjects weren't ketone adapted. The study compared a high carb meal with a little added fat, with a high carb meal with more added fat. So, it would seem that if you are eating a high carb diet then you may need to up your insulin if you add a lot of fat. LCHF's virtue is still intact

Well said... I will never go back to grains or starch... no meds for me...