8 Weeks or 15% ?

[Peerless67]

What is the major factor in the Newcastle diet ?

The 800 calorie part of the diet was carried out over 8 weeks, but Taylor says substantial weight loss is key and quotes 15%
He also mentioned that the time frame was not as important as the weight loss, and I hate to say this but I am sure he was saying it was OK if it took longer ( for those who were unable to do 800 calories)

I am doing something akin to the NC diet but I am not considered obese, when I checked my BMI at 84 KG and 6' 3" and 50 years old I fall smack bang in the middle of the green area. Now I already know that BMI is not the be all and end all but losing 15% of my weight will take me down to approx 72KG, that will take me very close to the lower line of the green area on the BMI chart.

That is not a problem I am doing well on the diet and I am confident I will pass the 15% but I believe I will hit the 72 KG in the next 2-3 weeks. That will still leave me with 4-5 weeks of the diet to complete. How much weight loss would be too much ?

I know if this works it will be about losing visceral fat from my liver and pancreas but I have no way of measuring that. I don't mind being slim and can see I need to lose some flab from my belly but I don't want to pass from slim to thin. How do I determine my fat threshold.



What are your thoughts ?

 

[Bluetit1802]

My thoughts are the 15% weight loss is arbitrary and must depend on other factors we don't know about. I lost more than twice that amount (over 33%) and have maintained it for nearly 3 years but am only well controlled, not in remission. I do believe you are correct to think he said the time scale of weight loss doesn't matter.

You can buy bathroom scales that measure visceral fat. This is one. There are cheaper ones.
https://tanita.eu/products/body-composition-monitors/bc-718

 

[Brunneria]

I have never understood the 15% thing.
It gets mentioned a great deal, but I don't see the logic.
We are all different shapes and sizes and weights when we start dieting, whether it is by the ND or something else. But predicting that 15% reduction is a magic charm doesn't seem likely. We certainly don't become T2 and then gain exactly 15% extra weight and sit waiting to lose that weight to reverse...

I suspect it is far more likely that, in Professor Taylor's study subjects, the average loss or the typical loss, or even the min/max loss that achieved his criteria for 'reversal' was 15% but that within those subjects, they saw a personal variation.

Are you familiar with his idea of a Personal Fat Threshold? He posits that this PFT is different for everyone. In which case, it won't necessarily be at the 15% loss marker, it may come sooner or later.

Hopefully in your case, it will be sooner!

 

[Peerless67]

My thoughts are the 15% weight loss is arbitrary and must depend on other factors we don't know about. I lost more than twice that amount (over 33%) and have maintained it for nearly 3 years but am only well controlled, not in remission. I do believe you are correct to think he said the time scale of weight loss doesn't matter.

You can buy bathroom scales that measure visceral fat. This is one. There are cheaper ones.
https://tanita.eu/products/body-composition-monitors/bc-718

Understood but 33% would take me down into the high 50s in KGs that would in my opinion be too much.

Dammit I just bought some digital scales, had no idea you could buy scales that measure internal fat.

 

[Peerless67]

I have never understood the 15% thing.
It gets mentioned a great deal, but I don't see the logic.
We are all different shapes and sizes and weights when we start dieting, whether it is by the ND or something else. But predicting that 15% reduction is a magic charm doesn't seem likely. We certainly don't become T2 and then gain exactly 15% extra weight and sit waiting to lose that weight to reverse...

I suspect it is far more likely that, in Professor Taylor's study subjects, the average loss or the typical loss, or even the min/max loss that achieved his criteria for 'reversal' was 15% but that within those subjects, they saw a personal variation.

Are you familiar with his idea of a Personal Fat Threshold? He posits that this PFT is different for everyone. In which case, it won't necessarily be at the 15% loss marker, it may come sooner or later.

Hopefully in your case, it will be sooner!

Yes I mentioned the personal threshold above, but how does one determine what that is.
I plan on seeing this until the end so want to see the 8 weeks out but it did occur to me that the 15% would get hit reasonably quickly, and I don't want to over do it, but don't want to stop short of completion.

 

[ringi]

I think it is a 15% lose from the weight you were when you first had Type2, not the weight you are now. It is based on removing fat from the beta cells. But Taylor is just guessing based on a small smaple size.

Without access to his over powered (3T) NMR scanner and its custom software there is no way to measure the fat in your beta cells.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Understood but 33% would take me down into the high 50s in KGs that would in my opinion be too much.

Dammit I just bought some digital scales, had no idea you could buy scales that measure internal fat.

You can only lose what you can lose without being stick thin and unhealthy. Do be careful.
Stick your scales on eBay and get some visceral ones!

 

[ringi]

visceral scales are about as helpful as BMI unless you use them to track how much fat you have lost, the way they mesasure fat content is only valid for the "adverage" person. Waist size may be a better measurement.

 

[badcat]

From what ive read, the 8 weeks is to do with the panreas shedding fat a lot more slowly / later than the liver and both are involved in the effects on blood sugar. Not sure how / ir that relates to the 15% figure tho'

 

[Peerless67]

I think it is a 15% lose from the weight you were when you first had Type2, not the weight you are now. It is based on removing fat from the beta cells. But Taylor is just guessing based on a small smaple size.

Without access to his over powered (3T) NMR scanner and its custom software there is no way to measure the fat in your beta cells.

Yes I agree, however I was originally 104 KG and over the past 2 years lost 20KG

I was 84 KG at the start of my diet and today I am 78.2 KG.

So I had actually already lost 20% of my weight, although this was not due to low carbs, it was just a side effect of my bad management. Now I am taking control and doing the VLCD but at what point would I go to far is my concern.

 

[Peerless67]

From what ive read, the 8 weeks is to do with the panreas shedding fat a lot more slowly / later than the liver and both are involved in the effects on blood sugar. Not sure how / ir that relates to the 15% figure tho'

Thanks that is what I am after some logic behind the 8 weeks / 15% argument. I need to find what you read.

 

[zand]

I lost 15% of my bodyweight and it didn't change anything. I never understood how the 15% would work for everyone. I was right it didn't lol.

 

[andcol]

The 15% was the point at which he found the average trialist started to respond with a normal insulin/BG response. Some where a little before this and other were after but most clustered around this.

 

[Peerless67]

The 15% was the point at which he found the average trialist started to respond with a normal insulin/BG response. Some where a little before this and other were after but most clustered around this.

Yes I have the full report in a PDF and can see where he got the 15% but I am trying to determine if the 15% is the crucial factor or the 8 weeks, and I have to say @badcat provides a very good reasoning. It could be that this longer spell is what allows the pancreas to shed the fat. I will continue to dig around in the search for an answer.

 

[badcat]

Thanks that is what I am after some logic behind the 8 weeks / 15% argument. I need to find what you read.

THis isn't the version I read but same author pretty much the same re the importance and time course of loss of pancreatic fat (apparantly 1g loss in that area is whats needed)
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/4/1047.full

 

[bulkbiker]

Yes I have the full report in a PDF and can see where he got the 15% but I am trying to determine if the 15% is the crucial factor or the 8 weeks, and I have to say @badcat provides a very good reasoning. It could be that this longer spell is what allows the pancreas to shed the fat. I will continue to dig around in the search for an answer.

As with everything concerning diabetes it will depend entirely on the person following the protocol. The guardian journalist lost 8 pounds in 11 days but got great results.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/12/type-2-diabetes-diet-cure
No idea if he is still ok though.

 

[ringi]

Firstly it is fat that must be lost so if you lose muscle mass it does not count, but the body can't lose much muscle in 8 weeks. Then it must be the correct sort of fat, so just sucking out the fat from under your skin does not work.

 

[DCUKMod]

Professor Taylor feels (unless he has changed since I last read his work), that we each have a personal fat threshold. As @andcol suggests the 15% related to averages from his early study subjects.

One very well documented exception was Richard Doughty, a journalist who achieved his reversal/remission/cure/whichever descriptor you choose, within something like 11 days.

As of last year, he was still successful: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/apr/23/diabetes-can-you-really-eat-to-beat-it

A classic example of how we're all different.

 

[Peerless67]

Firstly it is fat that must be lost so if you lose muscle mass it does not count, but the body can't lose much muscle in 8 weeks. Then it must be the correct sort of fat, so just sucking out the fat from under your skin does not work.

Its a diet losing fat is the aim, I am not having liposuction I am dieting !!! How do I target the correct sort of fat ?

 

[Peerless67]

Professor Taylor feels (unless he has changed since I last read his work), that we each have a personal fat threshold. As @andcol suggests the 15% related to averages from his early study subjects.

One very well documented exception was Richard Doughty, a journalist who achieved his reversal/remission/cure/whichever descriptor you choose, within something like 11 days.

As of last year, he was still successful: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/apr/23/diabetes-can-you-really-eat-to-beat-it

A classic example of how we're all different.

I guess I should have wrote a longer opening post to include that I have read all of the NC diet studies and know about the fat threshold claim. However how do you calculate that threshold ? I am some 25 KG lighter now than I was when I was diagnosed but I still have diabetes. There must be more to this than just an 8 week time frame or 15% weight loss.

I read the link above some time ago and I believe it has a classification all of its own.