And so it begins: Eat less meat or we’ll make you.

Not sure what this means. since it is too close to Brexit and I am thoughly anaesthestised and readuy to paas out, but found this nugget:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51334031

Not sure which side she batted for but saw COP 26 so it may be relevant to this thead. Night night all. happy new year/

Rustytypin said:

Hi @Oldvatr I have been digging around the net to find out about this “red meat levy”. It appears to be something that has been in existence for some time. From what I have read, various agricultural boards around the country, one for each of the devolved governments, collect a levy from slaughter houses and distribute it for marketing and other purposes. This clause in the bill seems to be addressing some current anomalies and as far as I can see is nothing new. Something about “unfair distribution “ of current payments.

Click to expand...

OK. That sounds plausible. It certainly seems to be allowing each country to set their own levy rates.

Oldvatr said:

OK. That sounds plausible. It certainly seems to be allowing each country to set their own levy rates.

Click to expand...

the red meat levy on farmers has been going on for years round here.

lucylocket61 said:

the red meat levy on farmers has been going on for years round here.

Click to expand...

Because it exists in the legislation already, then it is an ideal candidate to be controlled so as to raise taxes on the red meats only, so don't breathe a sigh of relief yet. It can be done as a background task and will not need any more primary legislation. It is hidden from Joe Public until the increaed prices start to squeeze the marketplace. It can be the ideal stealth tax. Remember these bills were prepared by the Climate Change Comittee, and have not been discussed in open forum.

Oldvatr said:

Because it exists in the legislation already, then it is an ideal candidate to be controlled so as to raise taxes on the red meats only, so don't breathe a sigh of relief yet. It can be done as a background task and will not need any more primary legislation. It is hidden from Joe Public until the increaed prices start to squeeze the marketplace. It can be the ideal stealth tax. Remember these bills were prepared by the Climate Change Comittee, and have not been discussed in open forum.

Click to expand...

I enjoy your comments and information, but can we stick to facts please and not speculation? I think we are creeping into conspiracy theory territory here.

Oldvatr said:

Because it exists in the legislation already, then it is an ideal candidate to be controlled so as to raise taxes on the red meats only, so don't breathe a sigh of relief yet. It can be done as a background task and will not need any more primary legislation. It is hidden from Joe Public until the increaed prices start to squeeze the marketplace. It can be the ideal stealth tax. Remember these bills were prepared by the Climate Change Comittee, and have not been discussed in open forum.

Click to expand...

As a follow on thought process, I am surprised that now we have exited the EU, then we have sovereign power to introduce a Carbon sales tax on things like coal, gas, petrol/ also petrol and diesel car sales incl second hand vehicles. Also on things like animal Feed and live animal transportation and slaughter. We are also now able to change what VAT is levied on individual goods. I note that France has just banned the slaughter of male chicks, and is considering banning the slaughter of male calves below a certain age.

lucylocket61 said:

I enjoy your comments and information, but can we stick to facts please and not speculation? I think we are creeping into conspiracy theory territory here.

Click to expand...

I take it you have absolute faith in the CCC quango and that they will make their rulings in our favour? I did post their roadmap document that laid out what the endgame looked like, and Michael Gove also released a form of national diat plan that encompassed the Global Diet. We did discuss it briefly in the Forum until the thread was closed down.

It is only a conspiracy when it is done in secrecy. So this is not IMHO a conspiracy, but is , yes, theory at the moment, I hope I am wrong, but the mood music at the moment is not conducive to relaxation. The clamour in the streets and the noises from the press do not give me confidence. There is too much money invested in this particular bandwagon for them to put it down and walk quietly away.

Oldvatr said:

take it you have absolute faith in the CCC quango and that they will make their rulings in our favour?

Click to expand...

I have posted nothing to indicate that.

I am talking about the speculation in our discussion of it, not the document itself.

Let's keep a factual and balanced approach about this.

I believe these represemt fact. The question is - Are THEY balanced?
https://www.theccc.org.uk/publications/

I enclose a snippet from a document published by the Eat Lancet Consortium and which formed part of their presentation material given to the UN, the EU Comission, The House of Lords and the Commons Climate Change Committee
This document exists and is not a figment of my imagination

Now the CCC is in discussions with the consortium that published the Table 6 data, and the same consortium is also contracted by the UK government to provide consultancy for them on diet to combat obesity. Is this balanced? Is it impossible that they might have some influence in what our government decides?

Apparently this is what was discussed by the CCC just before Christmas 2019
https://www.theccc.org.uk/wp-conten...change-and-diets-a-CCC-discussion-meeting.pdf
I think Table 1 covers the points I was daydreaming about a few posts ago. They have already been discussed.

The CCC roadmap showed a 20% annual reduction in livestock consumption for the years 2019 - 2023. Their annual report shows that they did not meet the 2019 target due to Brexit, but intend to make up for it this year.

Bottom line is that we could all exist on plant-based sources of protein - soy, seitan, Quorn etc if we had to and some cultures have done this successfully for thousands of years.
However, some people just do not want this decision forced upon them and are reluctant to experiment or modify their eating patterns

Dr Snoddy said:

Bottom line is that we could all exist on plant-based sources of protein - soy, seitan, Quorn etc if we had to and some cultures have done this successfully for thousands of years.
However, some people just do not want this decision forced upon them and are reluctant to experiment or modify their eating patterns

Click to expand...

Not me. Soy badly affects my thyroid. I tried Quorn and it wasn't good for me either.

Route 66 said:

Cant quite see Bojo cutting out his Steaks

Click to expand...

or the women!

Dr Snoddy said:

Bottom line is that we could all exist on plant-based sources of protein - soy, seitan, Quorn etc if we had to and some cultures have done this successfully for thousands of years.
However, some people just do not want this decision forced upon them and are reluctant to experiment or modify their eating patterns

Click to expand...

Exist? I’d rather live with free choices. But that is the beauty of humanity, our diversity.

lucylocket61 said:

I have posted nothing to indicate that.

I am talking about the speculation in our discussion of it, not the document itself.

Let's keep a factual and balanced approach about this.

Click to expand...

But let’s also remember that good debating is passionate

Dr Snoddy said:

Bottom line is that we could all exist on plant-based sources of protein - soy, seitan, Quorn etc if we had to and some cultures have done this successfully for thousands of years.
However, some people just do not want this decision forced upon them and are reluctant to experiment or modify their eating patterns

Click to expand...

Seems very simplistic stated like that

mmhh...

and yet...
https://asiandiabetesprevention.org/what-is-diabetes/why-are-asians-higher-risk

https://asiandiabetesprevention.org/about-asian-diabetes-prevention-initiative-adpi

https://www.nhs.uk/news/diabetes/higher-diabetes-risk-in-asians-explored/


I think this is a bit more involved then, X person/s did it..it's fine.

So you are right,
while i am happy to modify and try new things,
i don't want it forced on me...

Not sure swapping the issues from the rise in so many health problems, here in the west
for the unknown consequences, perhaps years down the road (Fat V Sugar anyone ? )
without doing some thorough research as to the Consequences.

Dr Snoddy said:

Bottom line is that we could all exist on plant-based sources of protein - soy, seitan, Quorn etc if we had to and some cultures have done this successfully for thousands of years.
However, some people just do not want this decision forced upon them and are reluctant to experiment or modify their eating patterns

Click to expand...

Sorry, i think thst is an oversimplifcation. If I go to my local fast food emporium and order a standard beefburger, I get all the proteins, amino acids, B vitamins, and some important minerals that my body needs and wants. If I go to same emporiium and grab a plant based variant, then I lose many of those nutrients. It does not matter if it is Quorn, Pea or Soya based, these are not 'complete' foods. I will have to add supplemental products to ensure I have the right mix.

I do not know what is in an Impossible burger. I cannot tell which of the elements are missing, that I will have to source from somewhere else. Similarly I do not know which plant based foods I need to eat to supply what is missing. But my single beefburger solves all that for me.

For example, I need to think also about Vitamins A, D3, K2 Omega-3, DHA and EPA. calcium, haeme iron, choline, taurine, iodine, sodium and potassium. These all come with the beefburger inclusive. A vegan burger is not a substitute for a standard burger - I don't care what it tastes like or smells like, or if it bleeds like - it is nutritionally deficient, compared to what I am accustomed to eating today. As I have pointed out the added heme iron in a single Impossible Burger pattie is twice the daily total recommended for a male. This means I can overdose on iron intake.

Dr Snoddy said:

Bottom line is that we could all exist on plant-based sources of protein - soy, seitan, Quorn etc if we had to and some cultures have done this successfully for thousands of years.
However, some people just do not want this decision forced upon them and are reluctant to experiment or modify their eating patterns

Click to expand...

No. I can't. I have tried.

I can't eat seeds and nuts. Legumes affect my bowel condition.

How do you suggest I get round those problems?

I would much rather be vegan, for ethical reasons. I am mainly vegatarian. But the threat to dairy, as a consequence of the big reduction in cattle, leaves me stuck nutritionally.

Along with many others, including the many who have health issues with soya products.

This is not a taste and choice issue, this is a health issue.