-
Guest - w'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the 2025 Survey »
sugarless sue
Master
- Messages
- 10,098
- Location
- United Kingdom
- Dislikes
- Rude people! Not being able to do the things I want to do.
I appreciate that , Ally, but this is a diabetic site, if someone new reads what you wrote and does not know that you are not diabetic then that quote may give out a confusing message.
sugarless sue
Master
- Messages
- 10,098
- Location
- United Kingdom
- Dislikes
- Rude people! Not being able to do the things I want to do.
There still are a lot, Ally, they just do not post as HP they post as diabetics.
cugila
Master
- Messages
- 10,272
- Location
- Sutton Coldfield, West Midlands
- Dislikes
- People who are touchy.......feign indignation at the slightest thing. Hypocrites, bullies and cowards.
ally5555 said:
You mean like the stuff that I was given by several dieticians over nearly 12 years and which nearly killed me ??
Ken -I have no idea what you were given or whether you kept to it either.
The point here is that it is descending into another low carb take over . I have just been watching the board for a while and not posted a thing. Some of the guys who are not low carbing are doing well so they need credit too!
however when I see ludicrous claims about low carbing curing everything it makes my blood boil.
The point here is that it is descending into another low carb take over . I have just been watching the board for a while and not posted a thing. Some of the guys who are not low carbing are doing well so they need credit too!
however when I see ludicrous claims about low carbing curing everything it makes my blood boil.
phoenix
Expert
- Messages
- 5,671
- Type of diabetes
- Type 1
- Treatment type
- Pump
In my opinion, Ali's post describes a stereotypical modern diet. Undoubtedly there are people who eat like that although I don't know many (most people I know are relatively healthy). Those types of foods don't contain carbs alone,the rice and pasta are usually white and served with high fat/sugary sauces, the potatoes often chipped. Most of the foods she describes are highly refined and overprocessed. They are energy dense foods containing high proportions of both fat and refined carbohydrates. Unfortunately these types of foods are widely available, cheap and sold in larger and larger sizes (I've been travelling up and down the UK this last few weeks and it seems that the motorway service areas are vying with each other to sell the largest size chocolate muffin!)
I have never read anyone professional or on forums like this one advocating a diet high in such foods. Indeed the WHO on whose most countries own dietary advice does put some of the blame for chronic diseases on this type of foods.(coupled with inactivity)
It is not the amount of carbohydrates that have increased in recent years but their type and the ways they are processed and combined with saturated fats.(and it maybe specific types of such fats)
Michael Pollan quite rightly says that we should eat food recognisable by our Grandparents, I think many would agree that is a sensible dictum (though I hope we can include other grandparents of other nationalities, wartime food was rather bland!). This wasn't particularly low in carbohydrates in most parts of the world.
Incidently the Joslin recommendation for diet in 1946 for a 'normal' person of 60kg was 250g carb(and 1800 calories), for a person with diabetes of the same weight it was 150g(1800 calories)
As to the original article, I have to say I recognised several of the phrases used, having read many of them on here and elsewhere by people advocating a very low carb diet.
I have never read anyone professional or on forums like this one advocating a diet high in such foods. Indeed the WHO on whose most countries own dietary advice does put some of the blame for chronic diseases on this type of foods.(coupled with inactivity)
http://whqlibdoc.who.int/trs/WHO_trs_916.pdf
It is not the amount of carbohydrates that have increased in recent years but their type and the ways they are processed and combined with saturated fats.(and it maybe specific types of such fats)
Michael Pollan quite rightly says that we should eat food recognisable by our Grandparents, I think many would agree that is a sensible dictum (though I hope we can include other grandparents of other nationalities, wartime food was rather bland!). This wasn't particularly low in carbohydrates in most parts of the world.
Incidently the Joslin recommendation for diet in 1946 for a 'normal' person of 60kg was 250g carb(and 1800 calories), for a person with diabetes of the same weight it was 150g(1800 calories)
As to the original article, I have to say I recognised several of the phrases used, having read many of them on here and elsewhere by people advocating a very low carb diet.
cugila
Master
- Messages
- 10,272
- Location
- Sutton Coldfield, West Midlands
- Dislikes
- People who are touchy.......feign indignation at the slightest thing. Hypocrites, bullies and cowards.
Hi Ally.
I followed the 'healthy' diet that was given to me by those dieticians. I followed it religiously, I trusted them. I was very careful about portion sizes etc as advised, but still put on weight, got complications and continued to do so until I reduced my carbohydrate consumption drastically.
I am not a low carber as such, I tried it and it worked but I do not go along with high fats. My choice. I now use a low GI/GL diet together with that drastic reduction in carbs, low fat etc. Works very well for me.
So, why would all those dieticians tell me to 'eat plenty of starchy carbs' over all those years. I even had one telling me the same thing recently. She was politely told where to go. I believe that even you don't go along with that advice.....or am I mistaken ?
As for low carb takeover, I have no idea what you are talking about ? There is no dominant ethic here anymore. Some people are just a tad more vocal. So speak up Ally. I'm all ears.
Regarding the claims about cures, yes I totally agree.
Ken
Phoenix.
Motorway services....I had to get a doggy bag after one chicken meal at a services. Half the price and half the portion size would be far healthier. Struggled to find much that was really healthy, chips, chips and then chips.....??
Ken.
I followed the 'healthy' diet that was given to me by those dieticians. I followed it religiously, I trusted them. I was very careful about portion sizes etc as advised, but still put on weight, got complications and continued to do so until I reduced my carbohydrate consumption drastically.
I am not a low carber as such, I tried it and it worked but I do not go along with high fats. My choice. I now use a low GI/GL diet together with that drastic reduction in carbs, low fat etc. Works very well for me.
So, why would all those dieticians tell me to 'eat plenty of starchy carbs' over all those years. I even had one telling me the same thing recently. She was politely told where to go. I believe that even you don't go along with that advice.....or am I mistaken ?
As for low carb takeover, I have no idea what you are talking about ? There is no dominant ethic here anymore. Some people are just a tad more vocal. So speak up Ally. I'm all ears.
Regarding the claims about cures, yes I totally agree.
Ken
Phoenix.
Motorway services....I had to get a doggy bag after one chicken meal at a services. Half the price and half the portion size would be far healthier. Struggled to find much that was really healthy, chips, chips and then chips.....??
Ken.
jopar
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 2,222
It would actually be nice if we could actually debate this with some intelligence, with low carbers taking a look at the points that Venuten suggested in his opinion is Stupidity and give a more intelligent explanation! And please no lectures or gospels preaching about how low carb cures all..
I wasn’t aware that there is a specific low carb diabetic diet, nor was I aware that to actually post to the forum, you had to be a diabetic, in fact I wasn’t even aware that Katherine one of the moderators was a diabetic herself, I always thought it was her son that was the diabetic! Oh well learn something new every day!
I start with choices of carbs side of things…
On side with have what it considered to be a recommended amount of daily carbs, which in my case being a female is said to be 230g, I know that I don’t get any where near that at all… Most day’s I would eat about half of this amount the only way I can realistically see myself getting near this figure is if I used refined carbs such as sugar or in the region of 4 jam doughnuts on top of what I already eat…
So I am a low carber, so what makes me different..
What makes me different is that I do not strive or limit myself to a certain amount of carbs per day…
I suppose that I am lucky in that my appetite etc, enables me to fall into a comfortable range, that my body is able to cope with, my eating practices really haven’t changed from the days that I wasn’t a diabetic so one would assume that diabetic or not, I wouldn’t have had to face dealing with how to reduce ones weight…
I wasn’t aware that there is a specific low carb diabetic diet, nor was I aware that to actually post to the forum, you had to be a diabetic, in fact I wasn’t even aware that Katherine one of the moderators was a diabetic herself, I always thought it was her son that was the diabetic! Oh well learn something new every day!
I start with choices of carbs side of things…
On side with have what it considered to be a recommended amount of daily carbs, which in my case being a female is said to be 230g, I know that I don’t get any where near that at all… Most day’s I would eat about half of this amount the only way I can realistically see myself getting near this figure is if I used refined carbs such as sugar or in the region of 4 jam doughnuts on top of what I already eat…
So I am a low carber, so what makes me different..
What makes me different is that I do not strive or limit myself to a certain amount of carbs per day…
I suppose that I am lucky in that my appetite etc, enables me to fall into a comfortable range, that my body is able to cope with, my eating practices really haven’t changed from the days that I wasn’t a diabetic so one would assume that diabetic or not, I wouldn’t have had to face dealing with how to reduce ones weight…
Ken - I would like to see what you were given and by whom ( no names!!)
It is interesting really that as I live and work in a local community pts often reappear and bring old diet sheets with them . I saw on of mine a few months ago from the late 80s - type 2 and carb counted in fact it was around 180g! Pt was fine by the way!
I do know that there was a time when the trendy thing to tell diabetics was eat a healthy diet and that was rubbish.
I do not know any dietitians who advoocate what DMUK do - you know eat some sugary stuff. I am still waiting for them to come up with some new guidelines !! yawn!
I am doing a masters at the moment and planning to do a dissertation on diabetic advice and outcome. I am particularly interested in by whom and whether it effects outcomes! I think it does.
One of the major problems we have is that dietitians do not have enough time with pts - I know of one dept that will loose budget if they do not numbers through and they are short staffed any way!
Oh and i have been asking pts diabetics and others about low carbing - interesting comments from pts by the way . My very rough reseach appears to show that yes most have tried it but it was keeping to it was the problem. I am planning to actually do this in a more formal basis for my dissertation as well.
It is interesting really that as I live and work in a local community pts often reappear and bring old diet sheets with them . I saw on of mine a few months ago from the late 80s - type 2 and carb counted in fact it was around 180g! Pt was fine by the way!
I do know that there was a time when the trendy thing to tell diabetics was eat a healthy diet and that was rubbish.
I do not know any dietitians who advoocate what DMUK do - you know eat some sugary stuff. I am still waiting for them to come up with some new guidelines !! yawn!
I am doing a masters at the moment and planning to do a dissertation on diabetic advice and outcome. I am particularly interested in by whom and whether it effects outcomes! I think it does.
One of the major problems we have is that dietitians do not have enough time with pts - I know of one dept that will loose budget if they do not numbers through and they are short staffed any way!
Oh and i have been asking pts diabetics and others about low carbing - interesting comments from pts by the way . My very rough reseach appears to show that yes most have tried it but it was keeping to it was the problem. I am planning to actually do this in a more formal basis for my dissertation as well.
sugarless sue
Master
- Messages
- 10,098
- Location
- United Kingdom
- Dislikes
- Rude people! Not being able to do the things I want to do.
Jopar, I was not inferring that you have to be a diabetic to be on here ! There are quite a few non diabetics, especially the parents of diabetics.
My comment was specifically that Ally's comment on HER eating carbs etc may be misconstrued if read by someone who was unaware that Ally is not diabetic.
As you know very well that Katharine is not a diabetic that comment is superfluous to say the least.
cugila
Master
- Messages
- 10,272
- Location
- Sutton Coldfield, West Midlands
- Dislikes
- People who are touchy.......feign indignation at the slightest thing. Hypocrites, bullies and cowards.
Ally.
Ah ! Now there is a problem ???
After the ceremonial bonfire of all that dietary advice I only have ashes left. :twisted:
Probably what I would be if I had followed it to the letter after realising that a lot of it was all wrong. I was a bit trendy so maybe that is why I thought it was good advice ?
Anyway, all I can say is it did and does still encompass the DUK advice. I was even told to visit their website for more advice ? I promptly gave said Dietician a Diabetes.co.uk flyer and told her to recommend that one as well ?? Not sure if she took my advice though....?
Next time I am at the Hospital I will see if I can get under their radar and sneak a copy of the latest advice they are handing out. :wink:
I agree that not enough time is spent going over things with patients, that plus costs which seem to be continually cut back are one of the real problems the NHS has to address. Loads of money for some things but education and simple things like testing/strips neglected. I mean how on earth can any Diabetic know what is happening when told to only test once or twice a week, or wait for a HbA1c result 6 months down the line as some on here will testify....madness.
My views on low carbing and other diets are pretty much well known by now. I believe it works well for a lot of people, but I also believe that not everybody has to stick to that. I'm an example of an alternative approach, so are many others on here. All I continually say is if it works well for you - then stick with it.
There are concerns about most dietary regimes depending on your point of view, so concern about just one I am not too bothered about. Those that can't stick to a diet are usually poorly motivated and lack the willpower to persevere when they don't see an overnight result ? An awful lot think medication is going to cure everything and that supplements are 'magic potions' for all ailments.
I think you yourself said something similar to me before the 'Revolution'...... Then again I might be going senile....my memory seems to be failing. Is that due to my carb reduction do you think ?? :lol:
If I do manage to find anything from years back I will let you know. Stay in touch. Hope the Masters goes well.
Ken.
Ah ! Now there is a problem ???
After the ceremonial bonfire of all that dietary advice I only have ashes left. :twisted:
Probably what I would be if I had followed it to the letter after realising that a lot of it was all wrong. I was a bit trendy so maybe that is why I thought it was good advice ?
Anyway, all I can say is it did and does still encompass the DUK advice. I was even told to visit their website for more advice ? I promptly gave said Dietician a Diabetes.co.uk flyer and told her to recommend that one as well ?? Not sure if she took my advice though....?
Next time I am at the Hospital I will see if I can get under their radar and sneak a copy of the latest advice they are handing out. :wink:
I agree that not enough time is spent going over things with patients, that plus costs which seem to be continually cut back are one of the real problems the NHS has to address. Loads of money for some things but education and simple things like testing/strips neglected. I mean how on earth can any Diabetic know what is happening when told to only test once or twice a week, or wait for a HbA1c result 6 months down the line as some on here will testify....madness.
My views on low carbing and other diets are pretty much well known by now. I believe it works well for a lot of people, but I also believe that not everybody has to stick to that. I'm an example of an alternative approach, so are many others on here. All I continually say is if it works well for you - then stick with it.
There are concerns about most dietary regimes depending on your point of view, so concern about just one I am not too bothered about. Those that can't stick to a diet are usually poorly motivated and lack the willpower to persevere when they don't see an overnight result ? An awful lot think medication is going to cure everything and that supplements are 'magic potions' for all ailments.
I think you yourself said something similar to me before the 'Revolution'......
Then again I might be going senile....my memory seems to be failing. Is that due to my carb reduction do you think ?? :lol: If I do manage to find anything from years back I will let you know. Stay in touch. Hope the Masters goes well.
Ken.
Agreed, so I'll give my take on it - this is from the point of view of a T1 who eats a low-carb paleo diet.
Point 1 (Selecting low-carb alcoholic beverages)
He makes a straw-man argument anyway - he implies that you're choosing low-carb beverages so that you can drink a lot of them. I agree with his point about limiting / moderating intake, but personally I also tend towards lower-carb choices when I do have the occasional drink. This is because lager / beer spikes my blood glucose too much. My advice to others would be simply to test with different drinks and see how you get on - i.e. be aware of the possible effect of high-carb alcohol, but if it doesn't make much of a difference to your control then it's no big deal.
Point 2 (Basically being a low-carb Nazi)
I agree with his "intelligence" points essentially, except that I do think grains and starches in excess are harmful to some degree in pretty much everyone. For what it's worth, I'd always go for food quality first over macronutrient breakdowns (i.e. I believe most people are better off eating real, wholesome foods first and then experimenting with carb/protein/fat ratios and finding what they're happy with, rather than tinkering with ratios of **** food).
Point 3 (Dieting without understanding it)
Again another straw man. To be able to low-carb you'd have to at least know a bit about low-carb diets. I don't know a single person who went low-carb without knowing why they were trying it and vaguely what they were doing.
I certainly agree that pretty much everyone could do with understanding food a bit better though.
Point 4 (Low-carb isn't a maintainable lifestyle)
I disagree with this. I do believe that it's possible to stay on a low-carb, ketogenic diet for long periods without any adverse effects, and there are plenty of people who do so just fine. This fact alone makes his theory incorrect (as you only need one counter example to disprove his statement).
The approach I take is to eat only unprocessed, unrefined foods - lots of meat, fish and eggs, plenty of leafy vegetables, nuts and seeds. This is a perfectly natural diet we evolved to eat. I get far more vitamins and minerals that I would from a typical diet (e.g. the US food pyramid), I get plenty of variety and enjoy my food, I can gain or lose weight as needed (I'm currently trying to put on some lean mass and it's working quite nicely on a ketogenic diet). My diabetic control is far better than it ever has been, my blood lipids are fine... how exactly is this an unsustainable approach?
I certainly think there are better and worse ways of eating low-carb, and I can imagine burning out very quickly if you do it wrong. It comes back again to the point that food quality is the key.
Point 5 (Calories don't count)
Of course calories still count. The fact is that you're less likely to overeat on a low-carb diet, because it's restrictive - but it's not some magical thing that alters the laws of physics. You can still overeat on low-carb and you can still lose fat on a non-low-carb diet. No disagreement there.
Point 6 (Staying on a diet that doesn't work)
Yup, agree that would be a daft thing to do.
Point 7 (Exercise)
I agree with the importance of exercise, but for different reasons - he's 100% wrong about its importance in losing weight. Nutrition is FAR more important than exercise in losing or gaining weight.
Point 8 (Essential carbohydrates)
He's basically saying "I know there's no such thing as a (textbook) essential carbohydrate, and I can't point to a single function in the body that needs dietary carbohydrate, but I just think they might be needed anyway". It's a lot of hand-waving and no substance. The simple fact is that the body CAN manage without dietary carbohydrate by producing glucose via gluconeogenesis, and it can do this remarkably efficiently and for long periods without any apparent detriment (and much anecdotal evidence that it can improve health).
That's not to say dietary carbohydrate isn't useful in some ways. For certain sports, you simply cannot perform optimally without dietary carbohydrate; and eating a no-carb diet doesn't work emotionally for many people, which is fine - but that's a different point. He fails to argue in what "way" carbohydrates are essential, and I suspect that's because they simply aren't essential.
Point 9 (Eat fat to lose fat)
I agree with what he's saying, which is basically "know what you're talking about".
Point 10 (All carbs are bad)
Again I agree with this, and again I think it comes down to food quality (i.e. unprocessed / unrefined natural foods vs. junk)
Point 11 (Not clarifying what "low carb" actually means)
Fair point, it's a fairly loose term and everyone seems to mean something different. Then again, I don't really care much about labels generally. My personal approach is to get the bulk of my carbohydrates from leafy veg, and only rarely eat fruit or starchy veg (and even then only small amounts). It's no more precise than that because I'm not anal enough to care any more than that, but for what it's worth it tends to average at about 50g per day, slightly more at the moment as I'm consciously trying to gain some lean mass and eating >4000 calories per day.
Point 12 (Fatty carrots)
Again I agree with him, though again it's worth noting that a carrot isn't fattening, but a highly processed carrot juice could easily be another matter... again it's all in the food quality and level of processing / refinement.
Point 13 (Processed / packaged food)
Hopefully it's obvious already where I stand on that!
Is that what you were after?
Cheers,
Nick.
C
catherinecherub
Guest
Thank you Nick, you have made my day :lol: :lol:
It took a lot of persuasion on mine and other's posts to debate the article and we now have an opinion as opposed to a mantra.
Well done that man
Catherine.
It took a lot of persuasion on mine and other's posts to debate the article and we now have an opinion as opposed to a mantra.
Well done that man
Catherine.
AliB
Well-Known Member
Oh I agree with Nick's post too.
But as far as my earlier comment is concerned, yes, I am in contact with a lot of people who are sick with one kind of health issue or another - is there any one out there who can really call themselves 100% healthy???
Come on. We all suffer with something or other, even if it's just acne! (and yes, a lower carb and lower sugar diet could help that too!)
I'm not making it up. The thing is that there are an awful lot of people out there who are gluten intolerant and don't realise it is that that is causing a lot of their problems. Knowing what I now know about it, I see evidence of it all around me.
By adopting a low-carb lifestyle, what inevitably goes out the window or at least takes a back seat, is grain consumption. It is that that can make such a radical difference.
Yes, I do personally know people who, by removing the bulk of carbs from their diets, including grains, who have recovered from the issues I mentioned in my previous post. My husband, although not Diabetic, and who just joined me in the gluten-free life out of interest, has recovered from years of depression and brain-fog. Although he still eats some carbs his Fibromyalgia is much improved and instead of having to have several days in bed every two weeks now rarely feels bad enough to need to do that.
My years of chronic IBS-D is a distant memory, as is my raging restless legs, my burning feet, my neuropathy, my acute stomach pain, my sore liver and NAFLD and my frozen joints.
I know others who have recovered from Bipolar, Sleep Apnoea, migraines, RA and a host of other issues both major and minor.
There is documented evidence of low-carbohydrate and/or gluten-free regimens being useful in the treatment of quite a range of different health problems.
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/6/1/10
http://www.kickas.org/as_dietary_primer.shtml
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 074631.htm
http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/info/ketogenic.html
http://cme.medscape.com/viewarticle/462205
Mental or neuropathic issues are not surprising as those with leaky gut issues can be affected by the gluteomorphins and the caseomorphins (in dairy) entering the blood stream and affecting the brain or nervous system. That may well be why my husband's depression and brain-fog has gone. If he gets 'glutened', boy, do we know it. If I could get him to dump the dairy we might see even more improvement, but he won't let go of that!
Diets like the SCD and the GAPS are, as well as addressing digestive and other issues, also being used with great success on children and adults with Autism and ASDs. They also cut out carbs from grains, starches and sugar and also restrict dairy so essentially are low-carb, focusing instead on good natural highly nutritional foods.
Yes, these are essentially gluten and dairy free diets, but what is low carb if not gluten-free or light? With many it is not just cutting down on gluten foods but removing them completely - and any hidden sources too, that makes the difference. As I have found though through my hours and hours of research and through Celiac forums, just removing gluten is not the answer for many. They need to remove all grains, starches and sugar, and particularly anything processed before they really start to see results, and that, of course, means that their diets are essentially low-carb.
Many on the Celiac forum, by following the low-carb regimens have seen improvements or even reversal of many and varied health issues - bipolar, migraines, skin conditions, stomach and digestive ailments, neuropathic issues, joint problems, fatigue, all sorts of things. Yes, I am in contact with many of these people. And I have many friends.
Ally - I'm not 'curing' anyone - and I don't suggest that low-carb can 'cure' everything. What I am doing is trying to get people to see how adopting a lower carb diet could benefit them in ways that would either mean that they would no longer need certain medication - after all, I have been able to dump my blood pressure tablets as a result, or could reduce them, as I have been able to do with my diabetic medication, or that they could rid themselves of health problems that the Medical Profession couldn't help them with at all, as I did with the IBS, the restless legs, the burning feet, the neuropathy and the digestive issues.
Just think how much money I have saved the NHS, and the anxst and distress I have saved myself by doing this.
You cited your own diet, but then you are obviously not your 'average Joe'. You are obviously not (as yet) affected by gluten, or carbs or dairy and are obviously very fortunate. Mind you - I thought I ate a very good diet but still had problems - it was, and has always been, the carbs, regardless of how 'good' or how 'bad' they were.
I don't know what you do or how you 'cure' people. I have been looking for cures for the last 37 years. My parents were looking for cures for the last 50 years - and spent a fortune into the bargain.
My Mum (type 1) died in 2000 - not of Diabetes, but from undiagnosed Celiac Disease. My Dad also had extreme gluten intolerance (although I only recognise that now I know what the symptoms are) and was type 2 but it wasn't the Diabetes that killed him either.
Having dragged a ball-and-chain of obesity, fatigue/CFS, Candida, IBS, Hypoglycemia, Diabetes, Restless Legs, and all the other niggly little rotten health issues that accompany them around for the last 37 years, let me at least revel in the knowledge that finally - without any help from anyone else - I have succeeded in 'curing' myself (and my husband) of the majority of these issues.
I am not scare-mongering. If this stuff wasn't a problem then why is the incidence of gluten-intolerance and issues associated with it so rapidly increasing? Why do many who dump gluten still not really recover until they take all grains, starches and sugars out of their diet? Although estimates differ, some estimates indicate that gluten intolerance is problematic for as many as 1 in 3 of the 'Western' population, and certainly from the issues I see around me that could be a fair assumption.
My husband didn't have any obvious gut issues apart from the ubiquitous gas and bloating, yet he is a different person off the gluten-based foods. My daughter's mood swings and depression are very much governed by the carbs she eats - and she recognises that. Even my grandsons turn into Tasmanian Devils when their blood sugar is all over the place from carb ingestion - and none of them are Diabetic. As gluten-based foods (including those with 'hidden' gluten) are endemic in our Western Diet and the supermarkets are stuffed to bursting with them then is it really any surprise? Yes, I know that gluten is a protein, but many who suffer with the intolerance also have issues with most carbohydrates. That is no co-incidence.
Why is my Doctor (whom I had to educate about Celiac/Coeliac) now recognising that she has to send patients sometimes three or four times or more for Celiac panel tests before getting a positive result - why is she even sending them at all when she knew absolutely zilch about it 18 months ago? Because she has now done research herself and has learned to recognise more of the signs and is more adept at picking it up. Shame no one did that whilst my Mum was still alive. Shame she didn't know about it when I first mentioned it to her. Shame she only sent me for one test and believed it when it came back negative (false negatives are VERY common).
I don't want to know now. It would mean going back on to gluten and there is no way I'm doing that. Besides, all I would get would be ****** carb stuff on prescription and I'm not eating that so there's no point. I eat a good balanced diet (what is balanced anyway?? The Inuit don't eat 'balanced' in our estimation yet they are a darn sight fitter and healthier than many of us!!) - like Nick, everything I consume is nutritionally beneficial.
At the end of the day, we can all learn from each other. At least my Doctor was prepared to listen and I respect her for that, even though it didn't help me at the time. Listening is not something that Doctors are very good at in general, neither do they have the time.
You don't have to have letters after your name to be intelligent and to amass knowledge and be able to discern the gems from the dross. What my Dad didn't know about the building and carpentry/cabinet-making trade (he could build a house from start to finish - architectural drawings and all) could have been written on a postage stamp - he was a highly respected and extremely skilled artisan, yet he had no letters after his name and left technical college at the age of 14 to start work.
Life is a learning curve. When we stop learning we might as well be dead.
But as far as my earlier comment is concerned, yes, I am in contact with a lot of people who are sick with one kind of health issue or another - is there any one out there who can really call themselves 100% healthy???
Come on. We all suffer with something or other, even if it's just acne! (and yes, a lower carb and lower sugar diet could help that too!)
I'm not making it up. The thing is that there are an awful lot of people out there who are gluten intolerant and don't realise it is that that is causing a lot of their problems. Knowing what I now know about it, I see evidence of it all around me.
By adopting a low-carb lifestyle, what inevitably goes out the window or at least takes a back seat, is grain consumption. It is that that can make such a radical difference.
Yes, I do personally know people who, by removing the bulk of carbs from their diets, including grains, who have recovered from the issues I mentioned in my previous post. My husband, although not Diabetic, and who just joined me in the gluten-free life out of interest, has recovered from years of depression and brain-fog. Although he still eats some carbs his Fibromyalgia is much improved and instead of having to have several days in bed every two weeks now rarely feels bad enough to need to do that.
My years of chronic IBS-D is a distant memory, as is my raging restless legs, my burning feet, my neuropathy, my acute stomach pain, my sore liver and NAFLD and my frozen joints.
I know others who have recovered from Bipolar, Sleep Apnoea, migraines, RA and a host of other issues both major and minor.
There is documented evidence of low-carbohydrate and/or gluten-free regimens being useful in the treatment of quite a range of different health problems.
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/6/1/10
http://www.kickas.org/as_dietary_primer.shtml
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 074631.htm
http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/info/ketogenic.html
http://cme.medscape.com/viewarticle/462205
Mental or neuropathic issues are not surprising as those with leaky gut issues can be affected by the gluteomorphins and the caseomorphins (in dairy) entering the blood stream and affecting the brain or nervous system. That may well be why my husband's depression and brain-fog has gone. If he gets 'glutened', boy, do we know it. If I could get him to dump the dairy we might see even more improvement, but he won't let go of that!
Diets like the SCD and the GAPS are, as well as addressing digestive and other issues, also being used with great success on children and adults with Autism and ASDs. They also cut out carbs from grains, starches and sugar and also restrict dairy so essentially are low-carb, focusing instead on good natural highly nutritional foods.
Yes, these are essentially gluten and dairy free diets, but what is low carb if not gluten-free or light? With many it is not just cutting down on gluten foods but removing them completely - and any hidden sources too, that makes the difference. As I have found though through my hours and hours of research and through Celiac forums, just removing gluten is not the answer for many. They need to remove all grains, starches and sugar, and particularly anything processed before they really start to see results, and that, of course, means that their diets are essentially low-carb.
Many on the Celiac forum, by following the low-carb regimens have seen improvements or even reversal of many and varied health issues - bipolar, migraines, skin conditions, stomach and digestive ailments, neuropathic issues, joint problems, fatigue, all sorts of things. Yes, I am in contact with many of these people. And I have many friends.
Ally - I'm not 'curing' anyone - and I don't suggest that low-carb can 'cure' everything. What I am doing is trying to get people to see how adopting a lower carb diet could benefit them in ways that would either mean that they would no longer need certain medication - after all, I have been able to dump my blood pressure tablets as a result, or could reduce them, as I have been able to do with my diabetic medication, or that they could rid themselves of health problems that the Medical Profession couldn't help them with at all, as I did with the IBS, the restless legs, the burning feet, the neuropathy and the digestive issues.
Just think how much money I have saved the NHS, and the anxst and distress I have saved myself by doing this.
You cited your own diet, but then you are obviously not your 'average Joe'. You are obviously not (as yet) affected by gluten, or carbs or dairy and are obviously very fortunate. Mind you - I thought I ate a very good diet but still had problems - it was, and has always been, the carbs, regardless of how 'good' or how 'bad' they were.
I don't know what you do or how you 'cure' people. I have been looking for cures for the last 37 years. My parents were looking for cures for the last 50 years - and spent a fortune into the bargain.
My Mum (type 1) died in 2000 - not of Diabetes, but from undiagnosed Celiac Disease. My Dad also had extreme gluten intolerance (although I only recognise that now I know what the symptoms are) and was type 2 but it wasn't the Diabetes that killed him either.
Having dragged a ball-and-chain of obesity, fatigue/CFS, Candida, IBS, Hypoglycemia, Diabetes, Restless Legs, and all the other niggly little rotten health issues that accompany them around for the last 37 years, let me at least revel in the knowledge that finally - without any help from anyone else - I have succeeded in 'curing' myself (and my husband) of the majority of these issues.
I am not scare-mongering. If this stuff wasn't a problem then why is the incidence of gluten-intolerance and issues associated with it so rapidly increasing? Why do many who dump gluten still not really recover until they take all grains, starches and sugars out of their diet? Although estimates differ, some estimates indicate that gluten intolerance is problematic for as many as 1 in 3 of the 'Western' population, and certainly from the issues I see around me that could be a fair assumption.
My husband didn't have any obvious gut issues apart from the ubiquitous gas and bloating, yet he is a different person off the gluten-based foods. My daughter's mood swings and depression are very much governed by the carbs she eats - and she recognises that. Even my grandsons turn into Tasmanian Devils when their blood sugar is all over the place from carb ingestion - and none of them are Diabetic. As gluten-based foods (including those with 'hidden' gluten) are endemic in our Western Diet and the supermarkets are stuffed to bursting with them then is it really any surprise? Yes, I know that gluten is a protein, but many who suffer with the intolerance also have issues with most carbohydrates. That is no co-incidence.
Why is my Doctor (whom I had to educate about Celiac/Coeliac) now recognising that she has to send patients sometimes three or four times or more for Celiac panel tests before getting a positive result - why is she even sending them at all when she knew absolutely zilch about it 18 months ago? Because she has now done research herself and has learned to recognise more of the signs and is more adept at picking it up. Shame no one did that whilst my Mum was still alive. Shame she didn't know about it when I first mentioned it to her. Shame she only sent me for one test and believed it when it came back negative (false negatives are VERY common).
I don't want to know now. It would mean going back on to gluten and there is no way I'm doing that. Besides, all I would get would be ****** carb stuff on prescription and I'm not eating that so there's no point. I eat a good balanced diet (what is balanced anyway?? The Inuit don't eat 'balanced' in our estimation yet they are a darn sight fitter and healthier than many of us!!) - like Nick, everything I consume is nutritionally beneficial.
At the end of the day, we can all learn from each other. At least my Doctor was prepared to listen and I respect her for that, even though it didn't help me at the time. Listening is not something that Doctors are very good at in general, neither do they have the time.
You don't have to have letters after your name to be intelligent and to amass knowledge and be able to discern the gems from the dross. What my Dad didn't know about the building and carpentry/cabinet-making trade (he could build a house from start to finish - architectural drawings and all) could have been written on a postage stamp - he was a highly respected and extremely skilled artisan, yet he had no letters after his name and left technical college at the age of 14 to start work.
Life is a learning curve. When we stop learning we might as well be dead.
jopar
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 2,222
Thank you Nick for a very informative and refreshing post…
You’ve managed to take a step to one side, and given clear answers, that actually makes sense and avoids the, you be dammed if you don’t follow…
Point 2&3
These are probably two points that rally me and give the impression that I am an anti-low carber of which I’m not…
We all know the consequences of bad control of our condition, not sure what makes the bigger impact, being told you’re diabetic or being told what might befall you… Perhaps I’m biased as I’ve lived with this information for 21 years now, so feel that I don’t need constant reminding… I do hate it though when it’s put forward as a reason why you must follow what some-one says…
As this lacks knowledge and/or understanding of what one is doing, which can in fact be dangerous for T1’s as there are many who do not understand the relationship between there food intake and there insulin, so you could if you didn’t take this on board, actually leave them suffering a major hypo by not given enough information and understanding… For T2’s in the main won’t have this problem, but some may fail to recognise the point that they need to start looking at introducing or changing medication to help there control because they’ve in fact gone as far as possible with there diet changes as they can go…
Another danger though, is if an individual is following blindly any regime be it low high or medium carb, they need to understand the diet in reflection to them, as sometimes it isn’t the diet that is causing control problems but the kit that they are using…
I fell into this sector, due to requiring very small amounts of insulin (17 units in total a day for a moderate low carb intake) insulin pens and syringes couldn’t deliver the small enough let alone accurate enough amounts of insulin… So I require an insulin pump which can deliver very fine amounts of insulin to meet my needs…
Point 4
This would really depend on what is meant by sustainable or maintainable though…
For some the smaller palette of foods wouldn’t be a problem to maintain on a long term bases…For others this might be a problem, as for some the simple fact of having the feeling that being denied something makes them hanker even more..
So this is sort of down to motivation and individual characters of how and what motivates an individual more than anything…
Point 11
This is a good one, because opinions very of this a great deal… My opinion is this should be partly based on an individual needs and how particular carbs react with there body… Not decided by some unknown person to them that doesn’t have any knowledge concerning that particular person and there needs…
I will say this though, once some-one learns carb counting and the actual amounts of carbs per portion of there foods, they tend to naturally lower there carb in take as they no longer seeing they plate as will that satisfy my stomach, but start seeing boy that is xxx amount of carbs scary.. In my opinion carb counting can work better than counting calories as you working with smaller numbers, the brain starts to blank out high numbers..
AliB
I really don’t understand where you are coming from, on one hand you say that you aren’t scare mongering, so why the constant lecturing? In truth we are here to understand and learn tactics to control our diabetes and sadly your lectures aren’t doing either you or the low carb theory any good at all..
You’ve managed to take a step to one side, and given clear answers, that actually makes sense and avoids the, you be dammed if you don’t follow…
Point 2&3
These are probably two points that rally me and give the impression that I am an anti-low carber of which I’m not…
We all know the consequences of bad control of our condition, not sure what makes the bigger impact, being told you’re diabetic or being told what might befall you… Perhaps I’m biased as I’ve lived with this information for 21 years now, so feel that I don’t need constant reminding… I do hate it though when it’s put forward as a reason why you must follow what some-one says…
As this lacks knowledge and/or understanding of what one is doing, which can in fact be dangerous for T1’s as there are many who do not understand the relationship between there food intake and there insulin, so you could if you didn’t take this on board, actually leave them suffering a major hypo by not given enough information and understanding… For T2’s in the main won’t have this problem, but some may fail to recognise the point that they need to start looking at introducing or changing medication to help there control because they’ve in fact gone as far as possible with there diet changes as they can go…
Another danger though, is if an individual is following blindly any regime be it low high or medium carb, they need to understand the diet in reflection to them, as sometimes it isn’t the diet that is causing control problems but the kit that they are using…
I fell into this sector, due to requiring very small amounts of insulin (17 units in total a day for a moderate low carb intake) insulin pens and syringes couldn’t deliver the small enough let alone accurate enough amounts of insulin… So I require an insulin pump which can deliver very fine amounts of insulin to meet my needs…
Point 4
This would really depend on what is meant by sustainable or maintainable though…
For some the smaller palette of foods wouldn’t be a problem to maintain on a long term bases…For others this might be a problem, as for some the simple fact of having the feeling that being denied something makes them hanker even more..
So this is sort of down to motivation and individual characters of how and what motivates an individual more than anything…
Point 11
This is a good one, because opinions very of this a great deal… My opinion is this should be partly based on an individual needs and how particular carbs react with there body… Not decided by some unknown person to them that doesn’t have any knowledge concerning that particular person and there needs…
I will say this though, once some-one learns carb counting and the actual amounts of carbs per portion of there foods, they tend to naturally lower there carb in take as they no longer seeing they plate as will that satisfy my stomach, but start seeing boy that is xxx amount of carbs scary.. In my opinion carb counting can work better than counting calories as you working with smaller numbers, the brain starts to blank out high numbers..
AliB
I really don’t understand where you are coming from, on one hand you say that you aren’t scare mongering, so why the constant lecturing? In truth we are here to understand and learn tactics to control our diabetes and sadly your lectures aren’t doing either you or the low carb theory any good at all..
graham64
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 841
- Location
- Witch Proof Safe House
- Dislikes
- Ironing, cooking, shopping. Pessimists, people with sense of humour bypass. Speed cameras Traffic wardens, Nanny state and Hypocrites
I also find that Nicks Post is well presented and he makes very good points. I think Ali has a lot to offer as well, I have found since Low carbing that my Acid Reflux which I have taken medications for many years has completely gone, just one of the many benefits of Low Carb besides the obvious BG and Lipid improvements.
Graham
Graham
dipsticky
Well-Known Member
Who's being impersonating me then ??? There is only one Dipsticky. Been on a little holiday, back now and I find somebody has been messing around with my girl and my motor. Now,i plan to get to the bottom of this. Somebody left a Chimp's outfit outside my place the other night ? Strange.
With respect.
D.
With respect.
D.
C
catherinecherub
Guest
The intention of this post was not to discuss if low carbing works and if you read the original post it is about another view on low carbing and I was hoping for a civilised response to the article.
Nick did a very good job and I thank him.
I cannot understand why we have to get into a pointless exercise about other topics within the same thread. There always has been and always will be people who manage their condition in a way that suits them and no one has the right to tell them what to do. Find something that works for you and stick at it is the best way forward. No way is the right and only way and no way can have 100% success for all participants. It puzzles me why others get so concerned if people aren't following the same pattern as them and yet are achieving good results and management. I also find it odd that a member of a low carb forum states that he does not consider himself to be what is known as a low carber. There are certainly some mixed messages in the posts that have derailed this thread.
AliB, perhaps you would like to start your own thread about low carbing as the cure for all ills :?: It really is not relevant here.
If anyone wants to add to this topic then please, please, please read the original post.
Catherine.
Nick did a very good job and I thank him.
I cannot understand why we have to get into a pointless exercise about other topics within the same thread. There always has been and always will be people who manage their condition in a way that suits them and no one has the right to tell them what to do. Find something that works for you and stick at it is the best way forward. No way is the right and only way and no way can have 100% success for all participants. It puzzles me why others get so concerned if people aren't following the same pattern as them and yet are achieving good results and management. I also find it odd that a member of a low carb forum states that he does not consider himself to be what is known as a low carber. There are certainly some mixed messages in the posts that have derailed this thread.
AliB, perhaps you would like to start your own thread about low carbing as the cure for all ills :?: It really is not relevant here.
If anyone wants to add to this topic then please, please, please read the original post.
Catherine.
