Are brief high sugar spikes OK?

Hi Hank,

Sounds like you are eating all the right things. My cautions would be protein quantities. Protein can raise us a lot in the absence of carbs. Fat plays a roll too. We have to find the right balance of all macros. Any idea how many ounces of protein you eat? That made a big difference to me as a T2 and 1 actually.

One other thing is dairy does raise me. It is very insulinogenic. Meaning it requires more insulin so if you don't make a lot it will raise bs by lack of insulin

Lantus is basal insulin. Nighttime to keep me steady as I don't make my own and our bodies are always kicking out a little bs so It counters this. However I take the smallest insulin doses possible. Next is none and I have to do this on occasion so I don't go hypo.

The snacking between meals is a catch 22. If done right ( SMALL fat scavenger, like a few nuts or a piece of celery with guac) will elicit an insulin response but won't be enough food to raise bs so it will lower you but it will also raise insulin and the key to longevity is low insulin. However in our case I believe we both have low insulin levels so it may behoove you to have a smalL snack to keep you steady. I have a friend who plays tennis and she always bolts up from activity but comes home and has 5 macadamia nuts and comes right back down. There is a difference between insulin resistance and not enough. Based on what you told me you eat,, other than the dairy I think you don't make enough so a snack may help as well as watching protein. Snacking to me is not a small meal. It's a few bites, one or two. A few olives, a piece of celery with a bit of guac, 3 nuts. Just enough to bring in a little insulin.

Rambling...in the end. Look at protein and try a little fat snack IMO.

Bluetit1802 said:

Spot on!

Most normal peaks occur before the 2 hour mark. Depending on the food eaten, they happen either within an hour or about 90 minutes. Some happen within half an hour if there are very quick release carbs. Anyone wanting to catch their peaks need to test half hourly until satisfied things are back to normal. By the 2 hour mark we should be well on our way down. There are one or two foods, like pizza, that can fool us by sometimes peaking later. It's not an exact science.

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On average the peak is 45 mins after eating. That's in the literature. Then for me personally, having used a Libre CGM, I can see that it's also 45 mins for me. So when I'm in doubt, I test at 1 hr to see if I need to take measures (bit of ex, or perhaps correction dose if things are seriously awry).

Kristin251 said:

but it will also raise insulin and the key to longevity is low insulin..

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Kristin, yes, that's the keystone of my approach too. Great to hear it.

Concern and motivation are of course not panic.

Hank, yes, you're eating all the right things and doing great. Congratulations, keep going.

I get completely despondent reading these posts. Despite following religiously a high fat low carb diet of no more than 30g carbs a day, my bg overnight are never lower than 8.5, and my bg after food is 7.5. I am losing weight which is great, and exercising, but I am at a loss as to how to get my bg any lower. I am trying to avoid going on any meds but after 4 months of eating so carefully and seeing so little improvement, and hearing everyone else panic when their bg is over 6, I feel really depressed about it all.

I don't see panic in these posts, and i don't see scaremongering.

The thing is, we each have different bodies and different reactions to food - we all also have different dawn phenomenons - which is grossly unfair, but it is just the way it is. And reactions to exercise, and food...

You are losing weight on lchf. I dont. Or rather, any weight loss is so slow it is infinitesimal - so i am entitled to be jealous of you. And as you continue to lose, you fasting bg may gradually step down. It often works like that.

We each have to make personal decisions about portion sizes, food choices, etc. and the lengths we are willing to go to (personally, i think aiming for the 4s is an impossibility for my body and i simply dismiss any post discussing them - no point even reading them).

However, when i arrived at this forum i had a lc hba1c of 45, but reading, learning, clicking links and systematic self testing has lowered it. It has taken 2 years to get to where i am now, and i expect in another 2 years i will be somewhere else - but no idea whether that will be lower, or higher.

This is a loooong game.

CatherineJohnson said:

I get completely despondent reading these posts. Despite following religiously a high fat low carb diet of no more than 30g carbs a day, my bg overnight are never lower than 8.5, and my bg after food is 7.5. I am losing weight which is great, and exercising, but I am at a loss as to how to get my bg any lower. I am trying to avoid going on any meds but after 4 months of eating so carefully and seeing so little improvement, and hearing everyone else panic when their bg is over 6, I feel really depressed about it all.

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Please don't try to compare your readings with others. We are all at different stages of controlling this disease, some of us have been at it for years. We all have a different amount of natural insulin production and insulin resistance, and some people posting on here do have meds to help them. Please don't get despondent. If you aren't above 7.5 post meal, you are doing fine.
Your fasting level may be a little high, but these are usually the last things to come down. Do you test at bedtime? Doing this will show you if you have a big morning liver dump or if you are high all night. The morning liver dump is perfectly normal and natural. It's just a sign your liver is trying to look after you. (and we all wish it wouldn't try so hard!!) These figures people are quoting are something to aim for, but it takes time. It's a marathon, not a sprint, and certainly isn't a competition.
You will get there.

T

Bluetit1802 said:

Please don't try to compare your readings with others. We are all at different stages of controlling this disease, some of us have been at it for years. We all have a different amount of natural insulin production and insulin resistance, and some people posting on here do have meds to help them. Please don't get despondent. If you aren't above 7.5 post meal, you are doing fine.
Your fasting level may be a little high, but these are usually the last things to come down. Do you test at bedtime? Doing this will show you if you have a big morning liver dump or if you are high all night. The morning liver dump is perfectly normal and natural. It's just a sign your liver is trying to look after you. (and we all wish it wouldn't try so hard!!) These figures people are quoting are something to aim for, but it takes time. It's a marathon, not a sprint, and certainly isn't a competition.
You will get there.

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Thank you. I've been diagnosed 4 months and I have made such huge changes that sometimes it feels overwhelming. I've turned my whole way of life upside down and sometimes i worry it's still not enough and then I just feel depressed about it all. My family all think I'm doing so well, but I'm really struggling some days.

CatherineJohnson said:

I get completely despondent reading these posts. Despite following religiously a high fat low carb diet of no more than 30g carbs a day, my bg overnight are never lower than 8.5, and my bg after food is 7.5. I am losing weight which is great, and exercising, but I am at a loss as to how to get my bg any lower. I am trying to avoid going on any meds but after 4 months of eating so carefully and seeing so little improvement, and hearing everyone else panic when their bg is over 6, I feel really depressed about it all.

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Hi Catherine
Congratulations on the LCHF and the work you are putting into controlling your Bg's. Some of the levels being discussed in this thread would be hard to achieve for a non diabetic let alone one of us. Use the search engine to look for Liver Dumps or High BFG Levels and you will find some useful information from others who have had to deal with these. Far from feeling depressed you should be proud of the hard work you have already put in. One thing I have seen suggested is to take a small protein snack before going to bed eg: Cheese, A few nuts, spoonful of Peanut Butter and see if that has any impact on your BFG's . Keep posting
Cheers

Kristin251 said:

I certainly get a Much bigger spike with carbs at BF. Less with lunch and less with dinner. Most people are most insulin resistant at BF after fasting through the night. I spike without food. I eat a very small BF and the only carbs are one piece of lettuce.

I don't consider 8-9 non diabetic. Living on the edge. I keep mine in the 4's

Are you talking around 150-200. As in 8-9.? Never want to go there. That is not non diabetic even if short term in my books.

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According to my doctor, you'd be right - 8-9 are not non diabetic and it's too high a spike.

Normal and diabetic blood sugar ranges

For the majority of healthy individuals, normal blood sugar levels are as follows:

Between 4.0 to 6.0 mmol/L (72 to 108 mg/dL) when fasting
Up to 7.8 mmol/L (140 mg/dL) 2 hours after eating

For people with diabetes, blood sugar level targets are as follows:

Before meals: 4 to 7 mmol/L for people with type 1 or type 2 diabetes
After meals: under 9 mmol/L for people with type 1 diabetes and under 8.5mmol/L for people with type 2 diabetes

My meter is set to 6.5 & 8.5 max before a red alert.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes_care/blood-sugar-level-ranges.html

So I test pre-breakfast after the long night fasting, and 2 hours after meals, and do not worry about post meal spikes. When I have tested I tend to be around the 7mmol/L mark after an hour, I never test sooner.

Lucy, I have read many times low insulin is more important than low bs but not sure how to lower bs without insulin haha. What I am doing is working...for now anyway.

Catherine , when I was type 2 ( actually even as T1 now too) I found a few things that tipped the scale in the right direction. The 3 legged stool which is LC , MODERATE protein, no more than 3 oz per meal and 4 hours between meals. Especially protein.
I always needed a small snack between meals as I ate small meals but it would be a few olives or nuts, a few slices of celery etc. just small.
The smaller servings of protein made a big difference. I have also found the size / portions of meals makes a huge difference. I prefer to eat 3 small meals and a few small bites of something in between. Also if I didn't get breakfast right the whole day was messed up. I can't eat a big BF and it can't contain carbs or even much protein so I either eat 1/2 an avocado with celery or a piece of Boston lettuce with mustard mayo and a small side of deli turkey. Then bs stays good all day but as I said if I spike after BF I spike all day. Finding the right BF took a lot of testing.
Sounds like you are doing a lot of the right things and maybe just need some tweaks.
Have you read the Bernstein solution or the Rosedale Diet. I got lots of great info from both to tweak and get me where I wanted to be

Congrats on the weight loss.

CatherineJohnson said:

T


Thank you. I've been diagnosed 4 months and I have made such huge changes that sometimes it feels overwhelming. I've turned my whole way of life upside down and sometimes i worry it's still not enough and then I just feel depressed about it all. My family all think I'm doing so well, but I'm really struggling some days.

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@CatherineJohnson what you're doing sounds exactly right. The time taken to adjust is going to vary and to do what you've done in 4 months is pretty neat. As was posted earlier, not a sprint to the line as the line keeps on moving and certainly not a competition. Keep posting and please let us know how you're getting on.
Wishing you good.
Hj

CatherineJohnson said:

T


Thank you. I've been diagnosed 4 months and I have made such huge changes that sometimes it feels overwhelming. I've turned my whole way of life upside down and sometimes i worry it's still not enough and then I just feel depressed about it all. My family all think I'm doing so well, but I'm really struggling some days.

Click to expand...

It's also important to remember that you're trying to do this WITHOUT medication. Don't be afraid of medication. If you need it, it needs to become a part of your management. Few people are lucky enough to be able to regulate their diabetes with diet only. In fact, many of the people who have responded inside of this thread are not only taking medication, but are also insulin dependent (myself included).

Bottom line, sure I'd love to live a medication-free life again, but I need insulin and I've accepted that.

Kristin251 said:

In my opinion, no they are not ok. We want to keep bs as steady as possible with as little fluctuation as possibles.

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I have always had variable blood sugars. It was called 'brittle diabetes' when I was diagnosed 40 years ago. I had the symptoms of diabetes long before that but, because my weight varied between 7 and a half stones and 8 and a half stones, I was told for many years that it was stress!

muzza3 said:

Hi Catherine
Congratulations on the LCHF and the work you are putting into controlling your Bg's. Some of the levels being discussed in this thread would be hard to achieve for a non diabetic let alone one of us. Use the search engine to look for Liver Dumps or High BFG Levels and you will find some useful information from others who have had to deal with these. Far from feeling depressed you should be proud of the hard work you have already put in. One thing I have seen suggested is to take a small protein snack before going to bed eg: Cheese, A few nuts, spoonful of Peanut Butter and see if that has any impact on your BFG's . Keep posting
Cheers

Click to expand...

Thank you, I will try that tonight

Kristin251 said:

Lucy, I have read many times low insulin is more important than low bs but not sure how to lower bs without insulin haha. What I am doing is working...for now anyway.

Catherine , when I was type 2 ( actually even as T1 now too) I found a few things that tipped the scale in the right direction. The 3 legged stool which is LC , MODERATE protein, no more than 3 oz per meal and 4 hours between meals. Especially protein.
I always needed a small snack between meals as I ate small meals but it would be a few olives or nuts, a few slices of celery etc. just small.
The smaller servings of protein made a big difference. I have also found the size / portions of meals makes a huge difference. I prefer to eat 3 small meals and a few small bites of something in between. Also if I didn't get breakfast right the whole day was messed up. I can't eat a big BF and it can't contain carbs or even much protein so I either eat 1/2 an avocado with celery or a piece of Boston lettuce with mustard mayo and a small side of deli turkey. Then bs stays good all day but as I said if I spike after BF I spike all day. Finding the right BF took a lot of testing.
Sounds like you are doing a lot of the right things and maybe just need some tweaks.
Have you read the Bernstein solution or the Rosedale Diet. I got lots of great info from both to tweak and get me where I wanted to be

Congrats on the weight loss.

Click to expand...

Thank you. I haven't read those, I will look them up

hankjam said:

@CatherineJohnson what you're doing sounds exactly right. The time taken to adjust is going to vary and to do what you've done in 4 months is pretty neat. As was posted earlier, not a sprint to the line as the line keeps on moving and certainly not a competition. Keep posting and please let us know how you're getting on.
Wishing you good.
Hj

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Thanks

TorqPenderloin said:

It's also important to remember that you're trying to do this WITHOUT medication. Don't be afraid of medication. If you need it, it needs to become a part of your management. Few people are lucky enough to be able to regulate their diabetes with diet only. In fact, many of the people who have responded inside of this thread are not only taking medication, but are also insulin dependent (myself included).

Bottom line, sure I'd love to live a medication-free life again, but I need insulin and I've accepted that.

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Thank you

CatherineJohnson said:

Thank you

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CatherineJohnson said:

I get completely despondent reading these posts. Despite following religiously a high fat low carb diet of no more than 30g carbs a day, my bg overnight are never lower than 8.5, and my bg after food is 7.5. I am losing weight which is great, and exercising, but I am at a loss as to how to get my bg any lower. I am trying to avoid going on any meds but after 4 months of eating so carefully and seeing so little improvement, and hearing everyone else panic when their bg is over 6, I feel really depressed about it all.

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I am doing well in managing my BS, but that is with medication / diet / supplements / exercise, 3+ months since diagnosis, and it just keeps getting better. I would not like 4 months of 8.5, I'd suggest having medicine first, let it go down asap to a good level and be happier, and then slowly remove the medicine if you really don't want them.

CatherineJohnson said:

I get completely despondent reading these posts. Despite following religiously a high fat low carb diet of no more than 30g carbs a day, my bg overnight are never lower than 8.5, and my bg after food is 7.5. I am losing weight which is great, and exercising, but I am at a loss as to how to get my bg any lower. I am trying to avoid going on any meds but after 4 months of eating so carefully and seeing so little improvement, and hearing everyone else panic when their bg is over 6, I feel really depressed about it all.

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I know what you mean. I have been sticking to lchf eating, and doing loads of exercise, but my am readings are always high and my 2 hour post meal ones are usually 8s and sometimes 9s. I've had a reading under 6 about 5 times.

Howver, my hba1c was 97 on diagnosis 3 months ago, and then was retested this week and is 49. So clearly the diet is working. I just tell myself that I'm doing the best i can, and try not to worry when people are panicking about readings over 7.

Well done on your weight loss