Artificial sweeteners are they all bad?

[Bluetit1802]

I wish you a Merry Christmas, too, and a happy and healthy 2019.

 

[torchman2]

Eaten in excess the liver will treat fructose as a toxin rather like it does with alcohol. Most of it ends up as fat round the liver - fatty livers = insulin resistance.

How much is "excess"? Studies that show excess will use a human equivalent dose of 200grams of fructose per day!

And where do you get the idea that "most of it ends up as fat around the liver"?

https://chriskresser.com/ask-chris-is-fructose-really-that-bad/

"... see how fructose is metabolized in the human body. (2) They found that 50 percent ends up as glucose, 25 percent goes to lactate and greater than 15 percent goes to glycogen. The remainder is oxidized directly (to CO2 through the TCA cycle) and a small portion – as low as 2-3% – is converted to fat via de novo lipogenesis."

So it would seem 2-3% of it goes to fat through DNL, not "most of it".

There's a massive difference between fructose powder added in huge excess to rat or mice chow (which also contains high fat loads), versus fruit.

There's also the issue of high-fructose corn syrup which affects research, which doesn't resemble fructose from fruit. There's a study that shows that HFCS acutally has 4x the amount of calories than equivalent sugar dose.

Fruit contains potassium, magnesium, calcium which act in an insulin-like way to clear blood glucose.

From the Kresser article:
"I don’t think there’s any basis for avoiding whole fruit simply because it contains fructose. As I’ve shown in this article, there’s nothing uniquely fattening or toxic about fructose when it isn’t consumed in excess."

Some other studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2714385/
"Studies in both healthy and diabetic subjects demonstrated that fructose produced a smaller postprandial rise in plasma glucose and serum insulin than other common carbohydrates. Substitution of dietary fructose for other carbohydrates produced a 13% reduction in mean plasma glucose in a study of type 1 and type 2 diabetic subjects. "

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/35/7/1611
"Isocaloric exchange of fructose for other carbohydrate improves long-term glycemic control, as assessed by glycated blood proteins, without affecting insulin in people with diabetes. "

This one backs up the Kresser article, that it's EXCESS fructose, mainly through soft drinks, that causes a problem because it leads to calorie surplus.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30463844
"Although most food sources of these sugars (especially fruit) do not have a harmful effect in energy matched substitutions with other macronutrients, several food sources of fructose-containing sugars (especially sugars-sweetened beverages) adding excess energy to diets have harmful effects. "

Some fruit with every meal will not lead to excess like doing 2 or 3 cokes a day.

 

[Guzzler]

Fructose is alcohol without the buzz.

A three minute video and a bit oversimplified but there's plenty of info out there as to why someone with Insulin Resistance should limit or cut out fructose (most especially fruit juices/smoothies, preserves and pop).

 

[HSSS]

How much is "excess"? Studies that show excess will use a human equivalent dose of 200grams of fructose per day!

And where do you get the idea that "most of it ends up as fat around the liver"?

https://chriskresser.com/ask-chris-is-fructose-really-that-bad/

"... see how fructose is metabolized in the human body. (2) They found that 50 percent ends up as glucose, 25 percent goes to lactate and greater than 15 percent goes to glycogen. The remainder is oxidized directly (to CO2 through the TCA cycle) and a small portion – as low as 2-3% – is converted to fat via de novo lipogenesis."

So it would seem 2-3% of it goes to fat through DNL, not "most of it".

There's a massive difference between fructose powder added in huge excess to rat or mice chow (which also contains high fat loads), versus fruit.

There's also the issue of high-fructose corn syrup which affects research, which doesn't resemble fructose from fruit. There's a study that shows that HFCS acutally has 4x the amount of calories than equivalent sugar dose.

Fruit contains potassium, magnesium, calcium which act in an insulin-like way to clear blood glucose.

From the Kresser article:
"I don’t think there’s any basis for avoiding whole fruit simply because it contains fructose. As I’ve shown in this article, there’s nothing uniquely fattening or toxic about fructose when it isn’t consumed in excess."

Some other studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2714385/
"Studies in both healthy and diabetic subjects demonstrated that fructose produced a smaller postprandial rise in plasma glucose and serum insulin than other common carbohydrates. Substitution of dietary fructose for other carbohydrates produced a 13% reduction in mean plasma glucose in a study of type 1 and type 2 diabetic subjects. "

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/35/7/1611
"Isocaloric exchange of fructose for other carbohydrate improves long-term glycemic control, as assessed by glycated blood proteins, without affecting insulin in people with diabetes. "

This one backs up the Kresser article, that it's EXCESS fructose, mainly through soft drinks, that causes a problem because it leads to calorie surplus.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30463844
"Although most food sources of these sugars (especially fruit) do not have a harmful effect in energy matched substitutions with other macronutrients, several food sources of fructose-containing sugars (especially sugars-sweetened beverages) adding excess energy to diets have harmful effects. "

Some fruit with every meal will not lead to excess like doing 2 or 3 cokes a day.

So by your figures 50% of fruit ends up as carbs. That’s a much higher % than anything else I eat, typically less than 5% definitely under 10%.

 

[Dark Horse]

Thank you Guzzler and Bluetit, you have really given me food for thought: sorry - bad pun!
Very interesting what you say about the '5 a day', why am I not surprised that it was thought up by the food lobby: Californian in this case. What it boils down to then is don't believe anything that the so called 'experts' tell us, whether it is '5 a day' fruit and veg, cholesterol and saturated fat and not forgetting the 'Eat Well Plate'. Scandalous really. And on that subject how about Coca Cola jumping into bed with Diabetes UK ? As one person wrote it's almost like a cancer charity being tied to Silkcut cigarettes!
So with great reluctance I shall not buy any more grapefruit when my current store is finished and will take on board what you are saying about fruit generally. Merry Christmas and thanks for your advice.

The World Health Organisation (WHO) recommend a daily minimum of 400g of fruit and vegetables https://www.who.int/dietphysicalactivity/fruit/en/ which can be thought of as five 80g portions per day. The slogan '5 a day' may have originated in California but the advice stems from a large evidence base, not from lobbying. For people who have problems with blood sugar levels, it might be better to limit fruit to 1 portion a day and take the rest as vegetables, with the focus on lower carbohydrate vegetables.

Public health bodies have tended to use the '5 a day' message as they think that most people would find this achievable. The evidence actually suggests benefits from double that amount https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/46/3/1029/3039477 but it's thought that people might find that too daunting and give up trying to increase their fruit and vegetable intake. 5 a day is therefore a compromise.

If you really love grapefruit, you could consider just reducing the number of times a week you eat it and/or do a swap whereby you cut back on some other carbohydrate in your diet which you don't love as much.

 

[HSSS]

No reason at all for type 2’s all 5 a day can’t be lower carb veg. Or even 10 a day of them!

No need for fruit at all to achieve the health benefits, especially if it comes at a health cost which kind of defeats the point.

 

[jjraak]

When I first arrived here @Gardengnome I read up on the diet doctor page about avoiding certain fruits .
Might be worth a look for yourself, been a most useful site to me

Also watched a posted video on here called (thread and video) " That sugar film"

Part of it discussed how fructose acts in the blood and on the liver ..quite an interesting film

Good luck with the swap out
Hopefully numbers will prove it to be a wiser choice.

Btw, highly recommend the Greek yogurt & blueberry breakfast

Now I have acclimatised to less sugar, I enjoy that and I now see it as a delicious pudding that does not spike me and it also energises me until the next meal time

 

[torchman2]

I have used artificial sweeteners for years now, ever since they became widely available, sprinkling them on my breakfast grapefruit quite generously and although I have often read warnings against them, I have largely ignored them as I don't like the taste, especially of Stevia/Truvia. That was until I read the following : https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/artificial-sweeteners-are-they-all-bad.159561/. I have been warned about my rising HbA1c but it stubbornly seems to remain the same every 6 months.

Is it possible that using Canderel and similar artificial sweeteners could have a connection to my rising HbA1c [45 m/mol at the last count]. I'm 76 and eat pretty well I think, always cooking from scratch, and am not in the least overweight. I love to start the day with grapefruit and really don't want to stop; I am careful with carbs but cannot say that I am too precious about them either, but I do have a love of dairy, the full fat sort. I feel that if I put myself onto an ultra low calorie diet I may have some result but doubt whether I could sustain that for long. I don't count calories but am careful with what I eat. I do however wonder if I should give up the sweetener.

How much protein do you eat per day? Protein is very important to allow the liver to work, which will improve insulin sensitivity and glucose clearance.

 

[torchman2]

So by your figures 50% of fruit ends up as carbs. That’s a much higher % than anything else I eat, typically less than 5% definitely under 10%.

OK, do what you want.

I was replying only to the point that fructose is somehow uniquely toxic and obesity-causing.

Fructose consumed with alcohol (eg vodka and orange) helps the liver clear the alcohol 80% faster, so it's improving the action of the liver in clearing toxins, not making it worse.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1854373

"The mean rate of alcohol metabolism increased by 80% after fructose"

 

[Brunneria]

OK, do what you want.

I was replying only to the point that fructose is somehow uniquely toxic and obesity-causing.

Fructose consumed with alcohol (eg vodka and orange) helps the liver clear the alcohol 80% faster, so it's improving the action of the liver in clearing toxins, not making it worse.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1854373

"The mean rate of alcohol metabolism increased by 80% after fructose"

Worth noting that the quoted study was conducted on a small number of male non-diabetics, who had different reactions. The 80% figure quoted is the average across just 10 people.