Type 2 Asking for a friend... phnarr phnarr

Probably not lasting damage unless.....

The beasts of food addictions are easily re-awakened and can lead to more and more frequent "naughty days".

If you have perfect self control then you may be ok otherwise be very very careful indeed.

We have seen many people have the "odd" cheat day which have led to complete disaster once the slippery slope has begun.

You'll hopefully find that sneaky keto habits will creep up on you and you won;t want the "naughty stuff" any more and it won;t taste as good as it used to.

I went to a swanky Michelin star restaurant last week for a birthday lunch (not mine but hubs). The bread there used to taste amazing so I had my first proper bread in 5 years.. certainly won't be doing that again.. it was decidedly meh!

I think that's right.
But don't come complaining with me if you friend manages to keep their hba1c well below prediabetic numbers with the occasional blow out and finds out they still have developed some health issue associated with diabetes 25 years from now.

The thing is, I don't think there are numbers on this. We're talking decades of data of daily monitored blood sugars in people with non diabetic numbers almost all of the time. I don't think those people exist, let alone a decent study of a large group of them.

Sarbak said:

If someone has put their T2D into remission (or is well controlled... whatever we want to call it - back in the normal range), would I be right in assuming that the occasional naughty day - like once every few months on special occasions - which caused big fat spikes, wouldn't do any lasting damage?

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Tell yer friend. I don't claim to ever be the "good diabetic." I've survived some "Darwin preprortional awards.."
The choice is your friend's regarding the "one night stand.."
Take care of this friend of yours & don't let it become too much of a frequent occasion.

In other words. If the "blowout" becomes (metaphorically.) a minute taken off a clock linked to a person's life in "Valhalla?" (Or where evah.)
Don't let that "minute hand" be moving at a rate, it's a fan in the kitchen..

I sympathise with your friend @Sarbak. Must admit though that I never did like a lot of the things others see as treats, most stuff like cakes and desserts are way too sweet but I do like those I make myself But they're low-carb (even if too high in calories) and I don't go (too) mad. I can't think that a couple of roast potatoes is going to see you cooking and eating them every day, whereas an addiction to chocolate is easily rekindled in my experience. Only 90% for me now and that's just too rich to pig out on.

Sarbak said:

I mean, at my heaviest I was nearly 24 stone

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I was 23 stone so understand where you are coming from.. have finally overcome the bread addiction but it took years.

@Sarbak

I was reading this thread and thinking of mentioning Xmas, but you got there first.

Every year on the forum we get a certain cycle of events leading up to Xmas and then following on from it.
It starts with excited discussions about Xmas food - planning menus, discussions on whether to stay on, or temporarily hop off the wagon.
Then people start talking about what they actually did (or didn't eat) and whether it was worth the hikes in blood glucose.
Some people stop testing 'cos its only once a year'
Then there is the few days of Xmas when everything goes quiet(ish) expect for the people who Stuck To The Plan and are happy to confirm that things went well.
Then the confessions start.
And the horrified tales of how high blood glucose went.
Then the determined commitment to new diet and exercise plans...

and eventually, around April, or even the summer, you get people coming back saying 'Hey, remember me? I haven't posted since Xmas. I thought it would just be a mince pie and a roastie, but here I am 3/6 months later, still buying cake and eating it in one sitting. Help!'

All of it is perfectly understandable, and perfectly normal. Human nature in all its variety.

My feeling is that the trick is to understand yourself well enough (based on bitter past experience, not on hopeful Born Again diet wishful thinking) to know what is likely to happen to you. We all have different histories with food. Is 'just one mince pie' on Xmas Eve going to be just that, or is there a risk of 6 months of weight regain, worsening blood glucose and feeling of failure?

Purely as maths, I'd be inclined to look at it as putting a hold on the countdown for a ticking time bomb. Every day you're good, and keep yourself mostly in pre-diabetic to non-diabetic ranges, that clock stays stopped, and you bought yourself another day of your life before complications set in. On the days when you're naughty, you're letting that timer count down. If you're naughty one day a month, it'll take 30 years to hit the complications that might otherwise have caught up with you in a year. if you're naughty one day a week, it'll take 7.

I'm sure, in reality, it doesn't work like that. Things are rarely so black and white in real life. Most likely, the clock is always running, and you're merely slowing it down on days when you're good and speeding it up on ones when you're not. Also, if you can keep your levels low, certain things, such as neuropathy, might improve. It may be possible to run the clock backwards, in respect of some complications.

I'm budgeting for being on this planet for another 25 years or so. My goal with respect to diabetes is to get there without any serious complications. But deterioration on various fronts is pretty much inevitable. I think that's a reality that sets in once you pass 40.

Of course if you hit very high figures, you can be in immediate danger. Certainly, 30+ and you're looking at an immediate risk. Possibly quite a bit lower than that. Unregulated, I believe my body starts peeing it out in the high teens. My HbA1c result suggests my average blood sugar was 12mmol/L prior to diagnosis, and that was with an addiction to Kit-Kats, Aldi fake Mars and Snickers bars, and big tubs of Celebrations.

I'd risk it for a biscuit.

Sarbak said:

Well, this is depressing, if true. So, are you saying that despite going from my highest (65) back down to 37 in the normal range within 4 months of diagnosis... and if I continue to manage my bg levels well going forward, I am still going to see diabetic complications? I mean, I understand that being diagnosed with T2D is a serious thing, but was I (am I) being foolish for thinking that maybe my hard work had undone the damage so long as I stick to my new and improved diet and lifestyle? If complications/deterioration is inevitable, are we all just fighting to delay the inevitable?

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Don't panic. I'm just past the 40 mark and I get what Nicole is saying... Vividly. I had to get glasses this year, my hormones are going nuts, my hair is turning grey... Once you're past 40, there is just some stuff that naturally goes downhill. Kinda how life works, for the diabetics and non-diabetics of the world. So you're not doomed with complications or anything... Just keep doing what you're doing and you'll eventually just need glasses because your eyes are slightly aging, not because of diabetic retinopathy and such.

Sarbak said:

Ok, thanks @JoKalsbeek - as you can see from my pic, I'm already completely grey and embrace that with open arms. I have no problem with the inevitability of age related changes... perhaps I just misunderstood what @Nicole T was trying to say lol

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I have to be honest, I started turning grey at 29, but I didn't quit dyeing it until I was about 39... I'm embracing my inner sage older woman. (Or crazy cat lady.) I got a tattoo this weekend, so I'm still also embracing my inner rebellious 18-year-old, but hey, I don't have to keep a social distance within myself...

For what it's worth, if I hadn't gone low carb, I'd either be on insulin, or quite dead. I was in a very bad state indeed when I was diagnosed. Quality of life counts and that has improved too. But I have, without a doubt, added on years, if not decades, to my life-expectancy.

Sarbak said:

I mean, at my heaviest I was nearly 24 stone... I definitely don't have perfect self control lol. Oh wait, we're talking about my friend... ahem...

But, in all seriousness, yes this is a good and sensible warning and something I need to be very conscious off as I transition off of a weight loss diet into a rest of life way of eating. I can't (yet at least) imagine a life long WOE that doesn't involve the occasional 'treat'.

I think things will become a lot clearer for me when I start testing my own body's reactions to foods and work out what's too worrying a trigger and what I can reasonably 'get away with'.

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but your "treats" could be something non food or if your moving onto a low(er) carb way of eating that fit into that. I must admit I'm no where near a perfect low carber and when I do fall of the wagon (usually bread, crisps or chocolate) I find it tough to get back on. But if I have low(er carb) food treats (cheese & pork scratchings are personal favorites) it's much easier to maintain control. I often drool over desserts when eating out, but on the odd occasion I get in and have one I end up sharing or giving it away as they're just to sweet. My taste buds have changed. Last Christmas I wasn't even tempted by Christmas pudding or cake.