Atkins and an already rasied cholestorol rating

[Anonymous]

It's a Sad Thing that "Experts" don't always know best. Most of us here don't think very highly of Diabetes Uk's attitude to diet. In a similar way, the British Heart foundation have got washed up on the "diet/Heart" theory and don't question it often enough.

Depends what you call 'experts' ? It seems that there are people here who consider themselves better 'experts' about CVD than the people who deal with it on a daily basis. Those who know and see what it can do. Those whose only thought is how can we stop this happening, how do we prevent this. Not how can we make money out of stirring up controversy.

Saturated fats haven't been Proven to cause CVD. It doesn't matter who or how often they say it's so. I WANT THE EVIDENCE. I can read a research paper and I can get hold of most of them, so why would any doctor hide evidence from me if it proved the point? More likely to hide the fact that there's no evidence.

That's a very cynical view. Why should any Dr or Specialist have to give you evidence that they have gained from their experience or their research. Are you willing to pay for those results or do you expect them to hand it to you on a plate ? There is much research, evidence and other material around where it matters in the health care spectrum. Many of us are able to look at research and see what we want to in it. in my opinion, Kendrick and his ilk are just out to make a 'fast buck.' So, I would have to disagree with you that there is no evidence. Nobody has proved that sat fats etc are not bad for you in relation to cholesterol, in much the same way with the converse argument. All this nonsense of conspiracy theories is just rubbish I am afraid,

As to writing books to sell. That is VERY HARD to do. A book has to convince a LOT of PEOPLE before it even gets published and once in the bookshops, it has to convince buyers.

Books are quite easy to get published especially if you get an endorsement or two from certain other interested parties, Bernstein and his ilk and others who are all singing from the same hymn sheet. So that is a spurious argument. Books can and do get published with totally false information in them. People who follow these so called Guru's all then rush out and buy the books, so there is pretty much a captive audience for them. Hence the books sell well, preaching to the converted is what it is termed.

However, A doctor has a "captive audience". ONLY doctors [and NURSE practitioners] can give you access to treatment. They don't need to show you evidence. they know the white coat and stethoscope around the neck will convince most people they knoew what they are talking about.

Leaving aside dietary advice relating to carbs and glucose levels which I agree is all wrong, the matter of cholesterol is totally different. I think I would prefer to listen as I said to real experts not just a GP/Nurse who doesn't have the requisite knowledge or skills to advise anybody in this area. Most I have ever been in touch with about cholesterol usually agree with the main stream view. There are always dissenters, if that is what you and they wish to believe, so be it. I just object when unqualified people try to tell me that if I low carb and if my cholesterol level is higher then that is what we should all be doing. That is frankly rubbish. Nobody here is an expert including me. We put our faith in what we as individuals believe, some of us just don't feel the need to tell everybody things that really they also don't know a great deal about, just profess to.

Every now and again,someone poses as a doctor and gets away with it or a doctor kills patients because he/she did something wrong.

And your point is ???????
Hana

 

[hanadr]

If you read that aticle through, you will see that even the dofctor who was questioned, wouldn't confirm what the De-bunkers wanted him to say. Having seen the effects of congestive heart failure in one of my dogs, I can say that a HUGE weight gain is possible.
My former Crufts first prize winner was about double her show weight when sh died, because at endstage, the drugs wouldn't take any more water off her.
And before someone says, "Oh that was just a dog!"
Vets have access to the same drugs as human doctors and for this disease some that humans don't get.
And Diabetic dogs and cats don't get put on high carb diets. Cats get T2 dogs T1
AND
I don't make rude personal remarks evne if tempted.
Hana

 

[cugila]

Hana.
What rude personal remarks. Members have posted their opinions as you have. I can see nothing wrong in any of the posts so far. Can you explain please.

cugila
Forum Monitor

 

[Anonymous]

Hana.
High cholesterol levels put you at risk for cardiovascular problems including heart attack and stroke. Even if you have low cholesterol, you should be aware if any of your current behaviors may one day put you at risk for a heart attack. Also, if you’re male, high cholesterol is a major cause of sexual health problems including erectile dysfunction and impotency. High cholesterol can do damage to the arteries and veins,

That is what I am talking about and what this thread is also about, not Crufts, not Cat's and Dog's.

Your eating habits have the largest impact on your cholesterol levels. Eating foods that are high in saturated fat, trans fat, cholesterol and low in fiber is a recipe for high cholesterol. The best way to lower your cholesterol levels is to eat plenty of fruit, foods high in soluble fiber and whole grains. That's what I do. Seems to work well.

I commented on your post which is why I quoted you, I was not commenting about any article :?

 

[hanadr]

Silver fox
I've had a stroke, I have never had high cholesterol.
As to experts
what about the famous Sir Roy Meadow? whose expert testimony put innocent mothers into jail for life, by explaining that more than 1 cot death is always murder. He did this using logic and statistical manipulation which would disgrace a GCSE Maths student, but he was the EXPERT and it took years to get those women out of jail. What would have happened if Britain had the death penalty?
I still say that any satement of "proof" needs support by valid studies and peer review.
Hana

 

[Anonymous]

Hana. I am glad to hear that you recovered from your stroke and that your cholesterol levels are fine.
I thought this was a discussion about cholesterol, not about the merits or failings of certain members of the medical profession. There will always be people who tarnish their calling, however that doesn't mean that all should be tarred with the same brush.
The medical profession in this country, and in fact around the world are in the main exemplary and highly skilled, dedicated people. For you to continually rubbish them in the way you do, making out that your beliefs are the only correct ones is highly misleading to members here and anyone who is just viewing as a guest as I did for several years before deciding I could stay quiet no longer.
I can accept your views if they were portrayed as an opinion, but you frequently claim that you, because of your background (teacher/chemist/scientist) know better than real experts in this field.
As for proof, there is none on either side. However there is much evidence around the world to support the view, not just in the UK, that cholesterol levels should be kept down unless you wish to suffer from CVD. This is totally contrary to the views of those few that write the money making books with an opposite view.
As far as I am concerned, only time will tell as to who is right and who is wrong in this debate. If you chose to take the risk, that is entirely a matter for you. Me, I prefer to listen to real experts.

 

[clearviews]

Heart disease kills.
Ancel Keys' research in the 1950's found that
Australian Aborigines had the HIGHEST rate of heart disease in the world.
Australian Aborigines had the LOWEST cholesterol rating in the world.
He chose not to include that in his published report.

 

[catherinecherub]

I thought it was the Aboriginal and Strait Islander's suseptibility to rheumatic fever that caused the high number contracting heart disease. This seems to be the poor living conditions that they experienced when moving to cities and towns. I have googled this and find that they were 8 times more likely to contract this than the general population and usually through skin infections as opposed to the usual route of upper respiratory tract infections.
Poor housing, lack of sanitation, overcrowding is always a precursor to rheumatic fever in any population.

Heart disease kills.
Ancel Keys' research in the 1950's found that
Australian Aborigines had the HIGHEST rate of heart disease in the world.
Australian Aborigines had the LOWEST cholesterol rating in the world.
He chose not to include that in his published report.

 

[Anonymous]

clearviews.
I agree that Ancel Keys report was rubbish in parts. Made to suit his own ends. However we are now 60 years on and research and medicine have all moved forward, so your comment that Aborigines had the lowest cholesterol levels and highest heart disease levels doesn't really matter here. I'm not an Aborigine, not in Australia and I don't 'cherry pick' statistics to suit my argument.
It's what people perceive as being the right thing to do. You, obviously believe what you have read and researched. So do I. Therefore you are not going to convince me with your old research statistics and comments.
I know what the present day thinking is, that will do for me. I know what the medical worlds consensus is too. It certainly doesn't go along with the 'cholesterol con' theories etc. I have a brain and I use it, much the same way as you. We are all intelligent beings and what it boils down to is this, we all have a choice.
Nobody should have to be lectured by people who are only quoting opinions because of what somebody said in a book, if you want to believe that, fine with me. There are a few forums around that all seem to have people with the same opinions, almost like they are in some sort of cult. Dissent and different opinions are not allowed, everybody descends on the 'offender' and tries to rubbish them, belittles them. So, the person who is being targeted leaves. Job done. No argument, no debate.
That's what is so good about this forum here which I have watched grow and mature over the years. There have been many times when I thought this forum was going to descend into a 'one stop shop', low carb or nothing !
Well, I think that now it is a wonderful place to be, many shades of opinion are voiced here, many differing views on what is a good way forward. We can debate virtually anything here rather than just be told this is the way forward, this is what you should do.
I am not a robot and I am able to think for myself and act on what I see as being evidence and not just led along by people who are, like myself, amateurs. Well versed in the science of diabetes but in no way qualified to pontificate about cardiology, heart disease, strokes etc.
So, we should not seek to lead people down a path which may turn out to be fatal. We should just let them decide for themselves after seeing both side of the argument. Let the people/members decide who they believe.
I have seen the effects at first hand and I know which pathway I take. I hope it is the right one. Time, as they say will catch up with me or those who believe as you do, that's when the 'chicken's come home to roost !'

 

[noblehead]

Silver fox,

What a excellent reply, very well put together and concise, pretty much covers how the majority of us feel on the forum......................well said!!!

Nigel

 

[Synonym]

All very interesting ...... but going back to the OP .........

Hi
I've been eating fairly badly, largely due to financial reasons etc, But health now needs to be taken seriously
My last hba1c was 7.8! I think a lot was to do with 3 weeks eatin in florida, and forgetting my entire supply of metformin. I'm on 1 twice daily
and my cholestorol is 6.5! which is higher than it's ever been.

I'm looknig at and reading the atkins books just now, but it seems a lot of fatty foods, will it help on all counts
I need to lose 3-4 stone

From my own observations I think moderation in all things and if you are testing and eating to your meter then cutting down on your carbs is probably the best way to go without going on to Atkins which is quite a severe diet. You need to be kind to yourself and patiently plug away at improving your diet. I think that the combination of fats and carbs is probably the very worst of foods that we can consume - things like cakes, biscuits, pastry, bread etc. Cutting those out is the best and perhaps even the easiest to start with.

I no longer eat any of the starchy carbs at all nor potatoes etc. so my diet is meat, fish, cheese and eggs with salad bits, veggies and fruits, nuts and seeds. I need to NOT lose any weight so have to be careful to eat enough which is another balancing act! :roll: My cholesterol has never been raised and has not been affected by the additional cream, cheese, nuts and seeds and I am not on any medication for cholesterol even though I had strokes 4 years ago. :?
It is all very difficult to work out what is best for us individually as we are just that - individuals!

 

[cugila]

An extract with some information here:
Heart disease and cardiovascular disease are very big killers worldwide and will become one of the leading causes of death in developing countries by 2020. While infectious diseases are being reduced by health measures, diet and lifestyle changes as countries become more affluent are leading to higher rates of atherosclerosis, heart attacks and strokes.

World Facts and Figures on Heart Disease
The World Health Organisation’s latest figures show that 17 million people die each year from cardiovascular diseases. The figures take a long time to put together, so the most recent year we have reliable figures for is 1998. In that year over 7 million people died from a heart attack and just over 5 million died from a stroke, with 15 million more surviving but disabled.

Heart Disease in Developing Countries
As health improvements and industrialisation come to developing countries, they also start to adopt what are considered ‘western habits’ such as smoking, less physical activity and a diet rich in fats and fast foods. People in developing countries suffer less infectious diseases (although this is by no means a problem solved) and so live longer. All these facts work together to make cardiovascular disease a major problem in the developing world, and one that is getting worse.

The full article here:
http://www.cardiacmatters.co.uk/facts-f ... dwide.html

 

[jopar]

Atkins diet is pretty on the high fatty side, not sure what version you’ve got, but Atkins has now been up-dated, with restrictions on some fats and proteins and increased carb amounts to aim for, so for all those who deem any evidence invalidated have to ask why have Atkins diet been revamped, fat cut back and carbs increased?

If you need to lose weight and control BG’s, then one of the best ways of doing this, is to work out how many carbs/calories you are actually eating, then look at ways of reducing this amount as it is likely over all to be a tad too much for your individual needs (500 excess calories can create a 1Lb of fat) then you use your meter to test the effects of what you’ve chosen to eat... Then you can work out what does and doesn’t work for you on the diabetic front...

What works, you can carry on eating, if it doesn’t then you can look at further ways of adapting or changing so it suits (could be just eating a smaller portion) if it ends up on the NO list, then you know why a lot easier to except and change your eating habits, the biggest problem with blindly following an diet plan, is actually maintaining it over long periods of time if you are not comfortable with the new set of eating habits... So far better to work out your own individual plan that works for you...

Never thought pedigree dogs would be brought into diabetes to defend an individual point of view; to me Pedigree show dogs are symbolic of the worst of human nature, selfishness, cruelty, greed and total disregard for welfare... I wonder if the heart condition is a genetic disposition of the breed, created by poor breeding practices, too many times breeders have breed dogs that fit the kennel club specifications turning a blind eye to the genetic health problems of the dog there are breeding, couldn’t care less that the poor hound may suffer either from birth or later in its life, as long as they get a dog, that fits the show standards and can create a large profit for their bank balance..

 

[lizives]

I tried the Atkins diet last year. Cholesterol was 5.3 - now 5.7. I tried it for a month and yes, I did lose weight but suffered for it. Doc was furious with me and I now know it was quite the wrong thing to do. I felt quite ill after it all and put on the weight again and some. So much for listening to others who recommended it.
Stopped stattins because of the aches and pains I suffer when taking them but Doc does not agree they are to blame. Any ideas please? Getting fed up with the yo-yo-ing weight and feeling ill so often.

 

[Dillinger]

Here is some grist to your mill.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... nst-cardio

Quackery? Money making scam? Or perhaps as many of us who do follow a low carbohydrate diet have found out; common sense.

LIzives; I'm sorry you didn't feel it helped you. I would google statins and side effects because what you describe is a very common; much more so than the manufacturers of those drugs would have us believe. Did your blood sugar control improve on the Atkins diet?

Dillinger

 

[coreservers]

I decided to cut out bread. just one thing at a time. And this week (using oatcakes instead) I've managed to lose 3lb. which is a good sensible weight loss rate, blood sugars been a lot lower too, it spikes to 12 or 13 after say an apple (I do love a green apple). but goes down within 30-40 minutes. Will stick with it a couple more weeks and if still doing this well i'll make it a permanent change

 

[phoenix]

Nobody is advocating that people start gorging themselves on saturated fats, tempting as that may sound. Some monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats, such as those found in fish and olive oil, can protect against heart disease. What is more, some high-fiber carbohydrates are unquestionably good for the body. But saturated fats may ultimately be neutral compared with processed carbs and sugars such as those found in cereals, breads, pasta and cookies.

“If you reduce saturated fat and replace it with high glycemic-index carbohydrates, you may not only not get benefits—you might actually produce harm,” Ludwig argues. The next time you eat a piece of buttered toast, he says, consider that “butter is actually the more healthful component.”

From Dillingers linked article
The article points the finger not at all carbs but at processed, high gi carbs.

After reading that and as he came up earlier in the discussion I remembered an article written by Ancel Keys in 1951 (what he actually wrote rather than what some people suggest he wrote)
Here he is referring to the rise in consumtion of all fats in the US and what should be reduced(1951)

In the classification of the U. S. Department of Agricultue,by far the largest proportion of the total fats, from 45 to 50 per cent in recent years, is "fats and oils as such, excluding butter." This means cooking and salad fats and oils, lard, corn oil, cottonseed oil, hydrogenated vegetable oil shortening, margarine, mayonnaise, etc. Butter contributes about 5 per cent of the total fat calories. It is evident that a large reduction in our present high-fat consumption could be achieved without affecting the fats associated with the more nutritionally valuable foodstuffs.

Prediction and Possible Prevention of
Coronary Disease*
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1620415/pdf/amjphnation00376-0023.pdf

Moreover, in the 1960s he reported research pointing to the dangers of hydrogenated oils and trans fats...something not really take up for almost 50 years. In another piece of research of the same period he also noted that refined carbs raised cholesterol levels whereas legumes caused a far smaller rise. Perhaps he wasn't so wrong at all... but many people seem only to listen to half a message.

Anyone for a moderate diet, not too much of it, not too much fat, few refined carbs ?
In other words , eating sufficient for your individual needs,avoiding industrially produced high fat/high carb/high energy 'foods'?

I don't think though you can avoid the large body of evidence that shows a clear association between high cholesterol levels and CVD and also the benfits of lowering these levels if they are too high and you have diabetes
Blood cholesterol and vascular mortality by age, sex, and blood pressure: a meta-analysis of individual data from 61 prospective studies with 55,000 vascular deaths.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18061058

Efficacy of cholesterol-lowering therapy in 18,686 people with diabetes in 14 randomised trials of statins: a meta-analysis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18191683

 

[noblehead]

I tried the Atkins diet last year. Cholesterol was 5.3 - now 5.7. I tried it for a month and yes, I did lose weight but suffered for it. Doc was furious with me and I now know it was quite the wrong thing to do. I felt quite ill after it all and put on the weight again and some. So much for listening to others who recommended it.
Stopped stattins because of the aches and pains I suffer when taking them but Doc does not agree they are to blame. Any ideas please? Getting fed up with the yo-yo-ing weight and feeling ill so often.

Hi lizives,

It no surprise that your Doc was furious with you for following the Atkins diet, it is well known amongst the medical establishment to be detrimental to long-term health, more-so for people with diabetes. There is a new version of the Atkins diet which I believe is more flexible in the foods you can eat, but I would be careful before ever considering this diet again after your previous bad experience. Most of the people behind these fad diets are just in it for the money, trying to sell books, DVDs and selling over-priced food supplements, the interests of the people following these diets are second to the vast profits they make.

There is some useful information here on the forum, I found it useful following the low-gi approach to eating whilst cutting back on portion size and eating a moderate amount of carbs. My advice would be to read up as much as possible, and ask to speak with your DSN and Dietitian to discuss your dietary needs, as they will both have access to your past and present medical history and the meds you are presently taking.

As you will appreciate, it is difficult to recommend a diet plan, as what works for one may not for another, which most on here would agree with. Hope you feel better soon!

Nigel

 

[timo2]

Hi coreservers,

I knew there was an OP in here somewhere. If you're spiking at 12 or 13 after an apple, then you might want to think about an alternative. You could perhaps have something like an avocado instead. It's possible that further weightloss will improve how your body handles things like apples.

Also, when you get your next cholesterol results, remember to ask your doctor for a breakdown of triglycerides, HDL and LDL rather than just a total figure.

Regards,
timo.

 

[hanadr]

How about this article from "Scientific American"?
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... nst-cardio.


I'm sure that pretty well all the doctors who tell people they shouldn't do Atkins, believe whatt hey are saying. they just haven't read everything that's been found in the last few years. They tell you of patients who have been made ill, but they are always someone else's patients.
Hana