Begining a ketogenic diet (lchf) - Type 1

[bhk]

Hello All!

My question addresses type 1 diabetics. I am viewing at more and more medical publications and success stories regarding the ketogenic diet and I feel that the time has come for me to try it. Informations on this forum is a little spread around and I could really find the answers to some questions that I have. If any of you are on a ketogenic diet or have been, would you know any of the following?

- Do you systematically loose weight ? (I am already slim and most of my weight is muscles, not fat, so I shouldn't really loose it)

- How many grams of carbs do you take daily?

- How do you deal with your needs in vitamins? Many sources say you go towards a deficiency in some minerals/vitamins. Do you feel any consequences?

- How about your energy level and concentration level. At the begining, during the "transition phase", how bad was it? Is it still on? How long was your "transition phase"?

- Could you mention 3-4 examples of your week's menu?!

Thanks a lot!

 

[TorqPenderloin]

I've been in ketosis for the better part of the last two months.

As far as the "transition" phase, everyone is different. It seems to be a matter of depleting your existing glycogen stores (roughly 2000 calories). For some, it can take longer than a week. For me, it now seems to take about 1.5-2 days of low carbing and heavy exercise, then a (single) horrible case of "The runs" and then I'm in full blown ketosis.

As far as vitamins, I eat plenty of leafy greens and supplement with a basic multivitamin.

Almost no issues with energy levels. I wake up at 4am each day (usually without an alarm) and have no trouble getting through my 1.5hr workouts each day. Distance running is not an issue but running for speed is the only time I run out of steam quicker (in comparison).

 

[tim2000s]

I'd tend to agree with @TorqPenderloin in terms of transition. Once you've been through it once, it takes a couple of days to get back in. I tend to use cyclical ketosis rather than constant. My initial transition first took about 5 days though.

Each person is individual in terms of how many grams of carbs per day you can east, although <30g is considered the norm for a ketogenic state. I take an additional multi-vitamin, plus zinc, magnesium and D3, although the D3 is because I showed up as having a deficiency that I needed to address.

Energy levels are fine in the state, although when running on ketones, it feels to me like I have a constant high blood glucose level as the ketones in the blood feel the same. Below is an example menu, including the Macro breakdown. It's worth bearing in mind that I have been in a not gaining weight mode since the beginning of the month, hence the 2000 calorie limit. Ignore the 1100 on the top left. That was my girlfriend's setting.

In terms of weight, it is not a given that you will lose weight on a Low Carb diet. It depends on the calorific intake of what you eat. For me, if I maintain 2000 calories (without wine) and go to the gym, I lose body fat and gain muscle, with an overall weight loss. If I consume wine, my weight remains stable. If I eat 2000-2400 calories a day roughly, I maintain weight and >2400 and I gain weight, so it is dependent on you specifically.

 

[LucySW]

I found Jenny Ruhl's nutritional calculator very useful in giving a basic framework. Take a look:

http://mobile.dudamobile.com/site/p....com/diabetes/33614154.php&utm_referrer=#2981

An additional component to juggle, like Tim's exercise/total calorie level/alcohol, to maintain or lose weight, is *fat*. I've been on 30g carb/day for 18 months and my weight has stayed between 68 and 70kg all that time. I don't want to put on weight, but I don't want to lose it either. I managed that by keeping my fat component high, roughly 80% or 170g/day. Less, I lose weight (and also get hungry, and start straying into snacking, which completely messes up my insulin sensitivity and therefore doses).

Good luck,

Lucy

 

[diamondnostril]

Hi @bhk,

I'm T1 and have been using Ketogenic Diet / Ketosis for just over 3 years now.

I've settled into using a cyclical Keto diet, where I stay in Ketosis for a sustained period (usually 2 weeks) and then have a scheduled binge day consuming a lot of Carbs. There are some reasons behind this which I think are specific to me.

I take less than 25g per day of Carbs. And I make sure not to take any more than 55g Protein. If I stay within these limits then my blood-sugar is very well-behaved. If I go over either of these limits then my levels get progressively more difficult to control. Based on what I've seen on this forum and others, these limits are pretty low. But I'm extremely lazy, and don't do exercise of any kind. I reckon that if I was more active then my tolerances would be higher.

I tend to lose weight on the diet, but for me this is resolved by the binge day at the end of each cycle. This situation is very comfortable for me - although I lose (a bit of) weight, I find the diet very satisfying and am never feeling hungry.

I do take a multi-vitamin daily. I think I probably don't need it, but I continue with it because it's nice (it's a soluble tablet, and makes the drink with my meal more interesting than just water) and I figure that it can't do any harm.

I can't remember experiencing problems with energy levels or concentration during my first weeks on the diet. But I did not know that I was transitioning - I was simply trying harder to keep my blood-sugar levels under control using food. It was only later that I found out this was a "Ketogenic Diet". Maybe if I had known more, I would have noticed more. My body is now very used to switching in and out of Ketosis. It takes around 36 hours after I finish my binge, to get back into Ketosis.

I use the Ketonix breath analyzer to confirm that I'm in Ketosis, but this is hardly necessary these days - I can feel if I'm in Ketosis or not. My body and brain both feel "sharper" in Ketosis, and quality of sleep is much better.

Regards
Antony

Some examples of daily intake:

Wok meal
200g Duck
[Garlic, Ginger]
100g Courgette
80g Red Bell Pepper
40g Broccoli
40g Turnip
75g Mushrooms, Chili Pepper
100ml Double Cream, in coffees over the day
1 Bulletproof Coffee

CHO-PRO-FAT
12g-45g-184g
3%-9%-88% of kCal
1884 kCal

6 Units Humulin S

=================

Cajun Omelette
3-egg (180g) Omelette
[Cajun Spice]
75g Nuernberger Sausages
45g Mozzarella Cheese
160g Green Bell Pepper
60g Turnip
100ml Double Cream, in coffees over the day

CHO-PRO-FAT
10g-44g-152g
2%-11%-87% of kCal
1584 kCal

4 Units Humulin S

=================

Mushroom & Bacon Soup
300g Wild Mushroom Soup
125g Smoked Bacon
50g Crème Fraiche
50g Yellow Bell Pepper
50g Turnip
60g Cheddar Cheese, as dessert
100ml Double Cream, in coffees over the day

CHO-PRO-FAT
11g-39g-157g
3%-9%-88% of kCal
1613 kCal

6 Units Humulin S

 

[CathytheChef]

I used to compete in bodybuilding so I've done my share of low / no carbs. I don't recommend it!! I know I took it to an extreme, but I believe I did lasting damage to my body. That plus being way too thin and generally not enjoying life. If you're dieting purely to look a certain way then go for it because it will make you loose weight. But if you're dieting to improve your long term health and well-being I strongly advise you to rethink this option. Healthy balanced food with lots of fresh fruit and veg makes you well from the inside out. Keto obviously worked well for some people above, but I used to think it was good for me too. Now I have all kinds of issues with food that I never had before I did this kind of diet. As far as diabetes goes, in my experience my insulin requirements initially dropped, but then crept back up. I use a pump so it was relatively easy for me to keep on top of. I don't think diabetes is a massive barrier to this kind of diet - I personally think it's fairly unhealthy for anyone.

 

[TorqPenderloin]

I used to compete in bodybuilding so I've done my share of low / no carbs. I don't recommend it!! I know I took it to an extreme, but I believe I did lasting damage to my body. That plus being way too thin and generally not enjoying life. If you're dieting purely to look a certain way then go for it because it will make you loose weight. But if you're dieting to improve your long term health and well-being I strongly advise you to rethink this option. Healthy balanced food with lots of fresh fruit and veg makes you well from the inside out. Keto obviously worked well for some people above, but I used to think it was good for me too. Now I have all kinds of issues with food that I never had before I did this kind of diet. As far as diabetes goes, in my experience my insulin requirements initially dropped, but then crept back up. I use a pump so it was relatively easy for me to keep on top of. I don't think diabetes is a massive barrier to this kind of diet - I personally think it's fairly unhealthy for anyone.

By your own admission you "Took it to an extreme" and were "way too thin," yet you blame the general concept of the diet rather than your personal implementation of said diet? Interesting.

While I never competed in bodybuilding, I am a washed-up competitive powerlifter. Indirectly, I've been around bodybuilding all of my adult life.

Bulking in the offseason, gaining 30 total pounds and hoping 5 of that is muscle...that's taxing on your body.
Cutting in season and losing that same 30 pounds in a matter of weeks...that's taxing on your body.
Cutting an additional 15 pounds before each competition to get down to a dangerously low body fat percentage...that's taxing on your body.
Taking diuretics to look more vascular, any supplement you can get your hands on, and possibly gear (steroids)...that's taxing on your body.

I could go on and on about the "dirty" side of bodybuilding. I'm not suggesting you did all or any of these things, but they're incredibly common in the bodybuilding world.

I'm not suggesting you are wrong just like I'm not suggesting that keto diets work for everyone. However, you've made some very strong statements that deserve some elaboration. Perhaps you could explain more in-depth why you attribute your health issues to the general premise of eating a low-carb diet?

 

[bhk]

Regarding cyclical ketosis, what would you guys recommend? Is it safe to be in ketosis non stop for several months?

Thanks a lot for all of your answers they have been very helpful!

 

[TorqPenderloin]

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you're asking that question, my recommendation is to not give a CKD a try.

The few people that intentionally follow a CKD do it so they can be in glycolysis and have extra energy during their high-intensity workouts, but get back into ketosis as soon as possible afterwards. That's not easy to do and it requires a very high level of measuring and adjusting your carbohydrate intake.

What I think you're asking about are "Re-Feeds" which some people also do where they follow a strict Keto diet for 10-20 days at a time and then have 1-2 days of "Re-feeds" where they eat large amounts of carbs and calories. Obviously, as a type 1 that poses additional risks, but there's nothing that says you can't modify that a bit to better suit you.

As far as being in ketosis for months at a time, there's nothing wrong with that and there are a few members on this forum who have accomplished it.

I'm currently back on a cutting diet mostly just because it's beach season. My current goal is to keep the diet as simple as possible. It gets a bit tiring measuring and weighing portions out all the time so I'm trying to largely avoid that. I'm targeting around 2000-2500 cals each day, but I'm burning somewhere between 3000-3500 with all the weightlifting and running I do. Progress has been pretty consistent so far, but eventually it will become necessary to be more precise with my numbers after I hit the first plateau.