Bemused, confused, testing defying logic (I think)

[LittleGreyCat]

On one of my infrequent testing campaigns and managing to confuse myself, as usual.

I do not seem to be able to tie in my results to the foods I am eating.

Oh, and I tested a 4.4 today which is drifting towards the start of hypo territory.
This is without medication and with much reduced exercise.

So:
Two days ago.
After a previous night 7.6 I woke with a 6.7 (nice transposition) and was 8.6 2 hours aftrer breakfast. Breakfast was a slightly unusual 3 egg omelet with bacon and cheese in, and some left over yellow lentil dahl on the side. 8.6 is higher than I would like and I didn't think dahls affected me that much. 2 hours later down to 6.2, 2 hours after a late lunch (chicken salad and a glass of white wine) still at 6.2. 2 hours after the evening meal of pork, and veggies (cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower) at 7.1.
So all in all a reasonable day apart from the 8.6 after breakfast.

One day ago (remembering I was 7.1 at 20:30 the previous evening)
Waking 9.0. at just after 08:00 (slept late). 10:00, after coffee, just before breakfast, 8.6/8.3 (double test changing over strips). Breakfast was 2 eggs, bacon, tomato, baked beans. 2 hours after that I was 8.0. About where I would expect to be, but what were all those previous high readings? 2 hours later (4 hours after meal) 5.2. 2 hours after dinner of chicken salad, 5.2. Bed time, about 4 hours after duck salad, 5.1.
So all in all another pretty good day apart from the high start.
What was that all about?
Liver dump at wakeup time?

Today (5.1 previous night)
5.4 on waking at 06:35.
8.1 after breakfast - about 1 hour 30 minutes. But, hang on, M&Spork sausage with over 90% pork and virtually no carbs. 2 eggs. 2 tomatoes. Very low carb breakfast. So why the 8.1? Did I have a liver dump? Pre-lunch, 3:30 since last meal, 6.4. Pre evening meal (over 4 hours after lunch of chicken salad) and sipping a nicely chilled glass of white wine I was 4.4 and skirting hypo territory. Never tested below 4.9 before, and that was a one-off. 2 hours after evening meal (re-run of 2 nights ago) tested 5.8.

So a run of very low carbing (apart from the dahl and baked beans there were virtually no carbs) seems to be taking my BG down into the 5s later in the day, but I still have higher readings in the morning.

Am I having a glucose dump from my liver around 08:00-09:00?
The breakfast this morning did not seem to justify the rise in BG, and the breakfast yesterday morning seemed to bring it down!

I am now wondering what would happen to my BG if I had the dreaded chicken salad for breakfast.

This burst of salads has taken me further into low carb territory than I've been for a while and I don't think I could stick it as a full time diet but it does seem to keep my readings down later in the day.

However I still seem to be getting high readings from time to time which don't seem to be directly correlated to the food I have eaten.

I was hoping for a straightforward cause/effect with the food, but if I get different results when I am doing much the same I can't rely on the results to tell me which foods are working and which are not.
The mornings are the problem.
Afternoons and evenings seem O.K.

As I said, confused.

Cheers

LGC

 

[xyzzy]

LGC you look like you're getting confused by the Dawn Phenomenon (DP). Everyone gets it including non diabetics. Its when at some point in the early hours your liver chucks glucose into your blood stream to get you all nice and ready for the new day. In non diabetics any excess is quickly mopped up by an insulin response but in diabetics who either don't produce enough insulin or have a high insulin resistance then the dumped glucose will slosh around and muck of your wake up or breakfast reading.

Most people for varying theories say eating breakfast is the key to stuffing it. I like to think that breakfast starts my metabolism off and thus induces an insulin response that will not only soak up the breakfast but the DP glucose as well. Another way is to go for a 10 minute power walk as that will induce your muscles to soak up the excess.

DP is a really irritating thing and if it wasn't for it I would nowadays have average BG's in the 4's most days so I hate it as well. When I first joined the forum I asked if it gets better and people said yes but very slowly and that is turning out to be the case.

BTW getting 4's is good, very good in fact imo. A normal healthy non diabetic persons BG's are usually sitting between around 3.8 to 5 at most times and normal healthy non diabetic people don't hypo just as you wont unless you start injecting insulin or start taking loads of very powerful insulin inducing drugs. Just trust your body to regulate your BG's it will honest.

 

[angieG]

I have similar issues at the moment, but not just at dawn!
I can eat a salad for lunch and go from 5 to 7.5 easy.
This evening I had a chipolata, bacon, mushrooms, celariac chips and scrambled egg. Followed by a little low carb cake and some double cream. This is a safe meal for me. 2hr about 6.8 great. At 3hr about 7.8 - so the cream slowed it down and now the protein is working maybe. Just tested before bed at over 5 hours after the meal and have now got to either 10.6, 8.5 or 9.1 depending which finger and test strip / meter to believe (didn't believe the first one!) So just what is going on there?
No wonder my morning fasting levels have been higher recently!
Is there a evening phenomenon too?
Regards
Angie

 

[sdgray22]

I have the same problem as littlegreycat. My readings would be fine except for waking and breakfast. Mornings seems to be a big problem they say you have to eat but it makes my readings far worse in the mornings. Thinking of trying one day with nothing till lunch and see what happens!!

 

[claymic]

I am getting confused by my readings as well...I am trying to see what food is affecting me or not. I think I cannot find a trend because I am trying to do some exercise and then eat relatively close to it...so i test before eating (with still exercise affecting it??) and then testing 2hrs after eating (effect of exercise gone?) and I am not sure!!!!!!

 

[xyzzy]

Yes my readings are always significantly worse in the morning. Ignoring the 2 hour after eating readings I normally wake up mid 5's then gradually drop to low 5's by mid afternoon. By 6.00pm they at at their lowest around mid 4's then are back to high 4's at bedtime. As far as I understand it is a common issue caused by insulin resistance being higher during the morning. Why that's the case I don't know and would be interested to find out.

 

[IanD]

For a long time - since starting low carb - my morning readings have been below 6. Now they are above 6.

I have done a couple of tests when I woke up in the night, & got the expected reading 5-6, & then above 6, 2-3 hours later, with only water to drink.

The dawn phen is the guilty party.

 

[phoenix]

As an interested observer.
Does anyone test half way through the night? Is i the rise really DP ie glucose released as a result of hormones telling you to get up and go or is it a mixture of that and the gradual drip feeding of glucose from the liver throughout the fasting period. What would happen if you fasted during the day?
I understand that insulin resistance can lead to a greatly increased output of glucose from the liver. This is going on all the time
(as a T1 that's what my basal insulin is for, and my requirements for it alter throughout the day and night.)
I understand that a lot of metformin's effect is to do with reducing hepatic glucose output and that it can be very effective to help with higher fasting levels.

 

[xyzzy]

As an interested observer.
Does anyone test half way through the night? Is i the rise really DP ie glucose released as a result of hormones telling you to get up and go or is it a mixture of that and the gradual drip feeding of glucose from the liver throughout the fasting period. What would happen if you fasted during the day?
I understand that insulin resistance can lead to a greatly increased output of glucose from the liver. This is going on all the time
(as a T1 that's what my basal insulin is for, and my requirements for it alter throughout the day and night.)
I understand that a lot of metformin's effect is to do with reducing hepatic glucose output and that it can be very effective to help with higher fasting levels.

Hi Phoenix the couple of times I've tested at 3.00am I've been at the same or lower levels than the +4 hour reading I take just before bed so I assume it's my liver starting up in the early hours. Whether or not that's one big dump or a drip, drip, drip I'm not sure. As Pneu said the other day for me it does make a difference on how long I take before getting up (not waking up) and taking my first reading. If I get up and test immediately then nowadays my DP effect is usually averaging around 0.5mmol but if I get up and don't test for say an hour then that difference can be as high as 1.5 or 2. Eating breakfast or gentle exercise then seems to soak up the excess after the normal 2 hour period.

If I fast after breakfast i.e. don't have lunch I get super low figures in the evening when I test prior to eating dinner. It seems like there is an upward pressure on fasting BG's that starts in the early hours that levels off but doesn't reduce until post breakfast. From then on there is a gradually decreasing fasting BG trend for the rest of the day until you fall asleep at which point things stabilise until the early hours again. Someone at some point said that this downward trend happened because insulin resistance reduced as the day goes on but why this would be the case no idea.

My aim is to find something that does attack fasting levels as stoping spiking is easy as you just restrict your carbs enough. I thought Banaba leaf extract might do it as the corosolic acid that's the active ingredient is supposed to act as an insulin substitute and therefore work in a similar way but I'm not particularly finding that although like Bitter Melon it does seem to stabilise pre and post BG's quite well.

If I was to guess I would say that for whatever reason my liver likes to maintain me at around a high 4 mmol/l level rather than a low 4 and therefore my fasting level is always just a bit above that. Very irritating.

Well thats what happens to me.

 

[LittleGreyCat]

I think I am having dawn phenomenon (dah dah di dah dah - for all Muppets fans) well after dawn.
Probably due to not eating soon enough in the morning.

Going to try:
(1) Protein snack last thing at night to try and avoid liver dump over night
(2) Protein snack on waking to try and avoid liver dump before breakfast.

However the insulin resistance in the morning tailing off through the day does seem to fit my figures.

Perhaps another indication to experiment with Metformin.

Cheers

LGC