Beta cell failure in T2

[Bubbleblower]

the cells are not dedifferentiated nor dead.

I like to believe they can be redifferentiated
Expression of Mesenchymal and α-Cell Phenotypic Markers in Islet β-Cells in Recently Diagnosed Diabetes

 

[Oldvatr]

I like to believe they can be redifferentiated
Expression of Mesenchymal and α-Cell Phenotypic Markers in Islet β-Cells in Recently Diagnosed Diabetes

The marker they are using (vimentin) is used by others to detect cancerous cells, all this reseach is doing I think is showing some cells have changed, but not that they are alpha cells, I have seen similsr research that claims the metamorphosis is from beta to delta cells, as envisaged by the increased glucagon secretion. However the possibility of cancerous activity is not ruled out.

I am concerned that to dedifferentiate any cell in the body will require making changes to the DNA in tthe cell, which is not something our bodies do naturally for any cells, except when attacked by cancer, The other question that springs to mind is that beta cells seem to get replaced every 10 years or so, and what would a dedifferentiated cell be replaced by?

The other problem I have is why would an inveasion of 5% of lipids in the pancreas cause this effect anyway? Dead cells and blocked cells make sense, shape shifting cells do not since they do not produce anything that provides protection or compensate for the loss of the originsl function.

 

[Tannith]

I like to believe they can be redifferentiated
Expression of Mesenchymal and α-Cell Phenotypic Markers in Islet β-Cells in Recently Diagnosed Diabetes

I believe they can be redifferentiated, because how else would you explain their ability to start working again following fat loss? They couldn't do that if they were actually dead.

 

[lucylocket61]

I believe they can be redifferentiated, because how else would you explain their ability to start working again following fat loss? They couldn't do that if they were actually dead.

my brother and I have lost no weight. No fat loss.

 

[zand]

I believe they can be redifferentiated, because how else would you explain their ability to start working again following fat loss? They couldn't do that if they were actually dead.

Fat loss is one way. Having a rest from carbs is another. If dieting doesn't achieve weight loss then cutting carbs can achieve the same thing. I am anxious that there may be newbies out there who just can't lose weight, not because of any lack of willpower, but because like me, their bodies just don't respond to crash diets well. I would hate them to feel despondent because of all this talk of weightloss when the answer for them is to reduce carbs.

 

[Tannith]

Fat loss is one way. Having a rest from carbs is another. If dieting doesn't achieve weight loss then cutting carbs can achieve the same thing. I am anxious that there may be newbies out there who just can't lose weight, not because of any lack of willpower, but because like me, their bodies just don't respond to crash diets well. I would hate them to feel despondent because of all this talk of weightloss when the answer for them is to reduce carbs.

A sea change in the world's treatment of T2 which reverses T2 for tens of thousands cannot be kept secret in case it doesn't apply to some who can't lose weight. Or indeed to those who have had T2 for more than 6-10 years. Not all treatments for other conditions, eg cancer, work for everyone. That is not a reason to withold treatment from those who can benefit from it.

 

[zand]

A sea change in the world's treatment of T2 which reverses T2 for tens of thousands cannot be kept secret in case it doesn't apply to some who can't lose weight. Or indeed to those who have had T2 for more than 6-10 years. Not all treatments for other conditions, eg cancer, work for everyone. That is not a reason to withold treatment from those who can benefit from it.

Sea change? Tens of thousands? Really? I don't see anything new here. Just because one man has decided to investigate what many have done for years doesn't make it new! I don't see a great reversal rate either. I knew about metabolic syndrome back in 2008. There were books about it back then.

There have certainly been more than tens of thousands of people who have reversed through low carbing, but that has conveniently been forgotten. These reversals often last 10+ years. I haven't seen anything like that with the ND.

The fact remains that very low cal diets are dangerous if not done under medical supervision.

 

[zand]

Also I don't see any new treatment? It's just a variation on the eat less, move more message. That didn't work so well for me. The OP mentions metformin but that's not new either.

 

[zand]

Since diagnosis I have lost 19kgs (16% of my bodyweight) through low carbing. I wouldn't want to go back to the bad old days of cutting calories and ending up ever fatter. I have maintained non diabetic HbA1c s since 2011 ( Except the post covid one which was 56) Long Covid upset things for a while but my bgs seem easier to maintain now. I wonder how many ND followers have controlled their T2 for 10 years? Not seen anything online about this.

 

[Tannith]

Fat loss is one way. Having a rest from carbs is another. If dieting doesn't achieve weight loss then cutting carbs can achieve the same thing. I am anxious that there may be newbies out there who just can't lose weight, not because of any lack of willpower, but because like me, their bodies just don't respond to crash diets well. I would hate them to feel despondent because of all this talk of weightloss when the answer for them is to reduce carbs.

I myself felt despondent last year when my diet didn't seem to be working as quickly as I wanted. Then someone reminded me that it takes a year to fully work and even then you can only return to around 93% of your original insulin secretion rate. Quite possibly it might not even work that well for me as I am older than the trial participants. But grown men and women must learn to accept disappointments in life. The weight loss worked for me to quite a large extent. I shall try to lose a bit more weight later to take me down to the bottom of the "normal" BMI range. However I am postponing this until I have had the result of my duodenal biopsy as if I were to need an operation it would probably affect my absorption of nutrients so this is not a good time for me to do it.

 

[Tannith]

Since diagnosis I have lost 19kgs (16% of my bodyweight) through low carbing. I wouldn't want to go back to the bad old days of cutting calories and ending up ever fatter. I have maintained non diabetic HbA1c s since 2011 ( Except the post covid one which was 56) Long Covid upset things for a while but my bgs seem easier to maintain now. I wonder how many ND followers have controlled their T2 for 10 years? Not seen anything online about this.

Weight loss by cutting carbs is fine. Any method of weight loss will work if done early enough in the course of the T2. You were probably unlucky, but we didn't know back then about reversing T2. All we knew then was that weight loss would prevent prediabetes from progressing to full blown T2.
And I have never had any objection to low carb as a means of lowering BG for those who prefer not to take drugs. Obviously the less carbohydrate you put into your body, the less insulin your body will need to make to clear your blood glucose. But for me I want more than just lowering BG, I want remission, and shall keep trying even if I only succeed in rejuvenating a proportion of my beta cells. Every little helps.

 

[Oldvatr]

A sea change in the world's treatment of T2 which reverses T2 for tens of thousands cannot be kept secret in case it doesn't apply to some who can't lose weight. Or indeed to those who have had T2 for more than 6-10 years. Not all treatments for other conditions, eg cancer, work for everyone. That is not a reason to withold treatment from those who can benefit from it.

Who is advocating holding back treatment? Who is trying to keep this a secret? You are over dramatising one aspect of diabetes care. Please be more moderate and considerate.

We query the explanations being offered up for one diet. I did the same for LCHF. It is important that we review so called science when it is a theory only, and making statements about beta cell demise is questionable. Not all mechanisms have been researched yet, and the cause remains unproven. This does not stop the NHS using this method as a treatment, or prevent us from recommending it here in the forum. As i have stated many times I believe the treatment to be effective for some. But it is one of many different paths to the required outcome.

You seem to be obsssed with only the weight loss aspect. I consider the adipocyte fat removal by whatever method to be the key. It is a fact that the diet shakes used by Taylor et al were both Low Cal AND low Carb, so even the diet explanation is open to question.

 

[bulkbiker]

Then someone reminded me that it takes a year to fully work and even then you can only return to around 93% of your original insulin secretion rate.

You do realise that this is complete nonsense at worst and pure guesswork at best?

but we didn't know back then about reversing T2.

Banting the funeral director wrote his pamphlet on low carb in 1869.
Just because Prof Taylor adn his minions didn't know about doesn't mean no-one else did.

I want remission,

And I and many others have achieved remission to an even greater extent than Prof Taylor deems "remission".
Why do you find it so hard to acknowledge this?

 

[HSSS]

Weight loss by cutting carbs is fine. Any method of weight loss will work if done early enough in the course of the T2. You were probably unlucky, but we didn't know back then about reversing T2. All we knew then was that weight loss would prevent prediabetes from progressing to full blown T2.
And I have never had any objection to low carb as a means of lowering BG for those who prefer not to take drugs. Obviously the less carbohydrate you put into your body, the less insulin your body will need to make to clear your blood glucose. But for me I want more than just lowering BG, I want remission, and shall keep trying even if I only succeed in rejuvenating a proportion of my beta cells. Every little helps.

Im totally confused by your position again. In both the following points you seem to contradict yourself.

1. You are measuring your success, or not, by means of fbg are you not? And periodic self administered OGTT? yet you say measuring bg isn’t good enough to be classed as remission.

2. You say in your first sentence ANY method of weight loss works, but then say low carb only lowers BG and is only an alternative to drugs and doesn’t achieve remission.

What do you define as remission, other than blood glucose? How are you measuring it?

 

[Tannith]

You do realise that this is complete nonsense at worst and pure guesswork at best?



Banting the funeral director wrote his pamphlet on low carb in 1869.
Just because Prof Taylor adn his minions didn't know about doesn't mean no-one else did.



And I and many others have achieved remission to an even greater extent than Prof Taylor deems "remission".
Why do you find it so hard to acknowledge this?

I don't doubt for a moment that you are in remission, since you apparently lost a ginormous 8 stone a few years back.

 

[Tannith]

Who is advocating holding back treatment? Who is trying to keep this a secret? You are over dramatising one aspect of diabetes care. Please be more moderate and considerate.

We query the explanations being offered up for one diet. I did the same for LCHF. It is important that we review so called science when it is a theory only, and making statements about beta cell demise is questionable. Not all mechanisms have been researched yet, and the cause remains unproven. This does not stop the NHS using this method as a treatment, or prevent us from recommending it here in the forum. As i have stated many times I believe the treatment to be effective for some. But it is one of many different paths to the required outcome.

You seem to be obsssed with only the weight loss aspect. I consider the adipocyte fat removal by whatever method to be the key. It is a fact that the diet shakes used by Taylor et al were both Low Cal AND low Carb, so even the diet explanation is open to question.

Zand said, "I am anxious that there may be newbies out there who just can't lose weight, not because of any lack of willpower, but because like me, their bodies just don't respond to crash diets well. I would hate them to feel despondent because of all this talk of weightloss when the answer for them is to reduce carbs." I took this to mean, along with other comments of hers along the same lines, that she thinks that mentioning ND/weight loss as a means of remission will disappoint those who can't do it and make them feel despondent about the prospect of reversing their T2. And that I therefore shouldn't mention it. 99% of the comments on this forum are advocating Low Carb, which is also only "one" aspect of Diabetes Care as you put it, so I think a bit of balance is in order. Reversing beta cell failure has now been found to reverse T2.
https://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/39/11/2080

 

[bulkbiker]

I don't doubt for a moment that you are in remission, since you apparently lost a ginormous 8 stone a few years back.

And that didn't involve starving myself in any way.

Does this mean you finally accept that low carb can provide what you seek just that you refuse to try it because Prof Taylor or more especially Prof Lean doesn't support it?

Also re Prof Taylor according to Dr Unwin, who I asked specifically about it, Prof Taylor was very supportive of low carbing and assisted Dr Unwin in getting his first paper on the subject published.

 

[Tannith]

And that didn't involve starving myself in any way.

Does this mean you finally accept that low carb can provide what you seek just that you refuse to try it because Prof Taylor or more especially Prof Lean doesn't support it?

Also re Prof Taylor according to Dr Unwin, who I asked specifically about it, Prof Taylor was very supportive of low carbing and assisted Dr Unwin in getting his first paper on the subject published.

There is low carb with weight loss and low carb without weight loss. As long as you don't replace the calories from the carbs you stop eating with calories from other sources, then of course you will lose weight. And weight loss on any diet you like can achieve remission from T 2 as long as you do it early enough after DX.

 

[Member496333]

I’m in remission with normal glucose and normal insulin after gaining 2kg. Just saying…

 

[lucylocket61]

A sea change in the world's treatment of T2 which reverses T2 for tens of thousands cannot be kept secret

Who is suggesting it be kept secret? Where is that suggested? People are pointing out that if one cuts carbs to a level ones body can cope with, weightloss is not necessary to achieve safe blood sugar levels. This is fact. Proven in numerous studies shown on these pages all over the forum. They have been put into replies directly answering your posts. You cannot have not seen them.

You choose to ignore the evidence, and create things people have not said. This is not helpful to you or others in learning how to deal with this condition.