Carbohydrates de mystified

[howardjohn]

The debate as to whether you should be on a high or low carb diet is mis leading. It is not quantity of carbs that are the point. Your BMI, age, activity level is used to calculate the quantity of carbs each individual needs in a day but not all carbs are the same, some are slow acting (low GI) some are fast (high GI) spreading your carbs across this range will give you medium. See the GI index.

I was diagnosed type 2 in may 2010 with BS of 27.5 (495mg\dl) and HBA1C of 12.8% with a low GI carb diet after 8 weeks this became 6.9%. If you test your BG 1 hour after trying a new food you will soon see the actual effect this food has on you, which is the only test that matters. A low GI diet makes all the difference.

To calculate your carb requirement go to http://nutritiondata.self.com/diabetes and use the weight calculator, as age, weight, height exercise levels all affect the carb count. This calculator will give you the minimum requirement for carbs calories protein vitamins etc. I was given my approximate carb requirement by a nutritionist who also gave me this web link.

Maybe here in portugal the health system is more thorough. Are you not given regular appointments with a nutritionist with the NHS?

Once you have your daily carb requirement calculated you just have to see how many grams of carbs are in the food you are eating, and spread the carbs out over all meals and snacks to give your daily total. Go to http://www.glycemicindex.com/ to see how many carbs and (and how fast they are) are in food.

And remember

Low GI diets help people lose and manage weight
Low GI diets increase the body's sensitivity to insulin
Low GI carbs improve diabetes management
Low GI carbs reduce the risk of heart disease
Low GI carbs improve blood cholesterol levels
Low GI carbs can help you manage the symptoms of PCOS
Low GI carbs reduce hunger and keep you fuller for longer
Low GI carbs prolong physical endurance

All the information you need is available to help you to manage your levels, its best to remember that it is up to you, so do the calculations and test regularly to see the results that are individual to you.

 

[Patch]

Welcome to the site, howardjohn. What is a Carb Requirement? Requirement for what? That makes it sound like carbs are essential - are they?

With T2 being a progresive disease, the idea that a level of carb consumption can be calculated seems odd to me. With regard to BG levels, carbs are undoubtedly the enemy. When we know this, why would we eat ANY carbs at all? (If a person is allergic to something, they don't test to see at what level of consumption they display symtoms - they just don't eat what they are allergic to!)

Just because some people can eat a certain amount of carbs (at this point in their life) without major spikes in their BG, should they eat that level of carbs? How long will they be able to maintain that level of carb consumption. Could it be that forcing the pancreas to produce insulin by eating carbs is what MAKES the disease progressive? Can you overwork your pancreas?

IE - can you PROTECT your already T2 pancreas by NOT eating carbs? Slow down the rate of progression by giving your pancreas an easy time?

I dunno. Just asking...

 

[noblehead]

Horwardjohn,

I'm afraid your preaching to the converted here, many of us on this forum are all to aware of the benefits of following a low-gi/gl diet does for diabetes control and overall health. Not to sure if the calculator would be much good to us though, only by experimenting and testing have we determined which foods are kinder in stabilising blood glucose, and you will find that each and everyone of us will have a limit to the amount of carbs we can consume before we jeopardize that control.

Good post, but I am always wary of clicking on links or searching unknown sites so I'll stick with what I know and works for me thanks!

Nigel

 

[cugila]

To a certain extent, I agree with Patch. What Carb requirement ? I eat some but not that many overall.

I checked out the link you posted which supposedly gives you the amount of carbs etc I should be eating........what a joke that was ! It told me to eat 140g carbs per day ...... :shock:
I want my diabetes to remain well controlled not 'out of control !'

If I did what that site advocates my Bg levels would be through through roof in no time. I eat around 60g daily at the moment, it has been much lower and I also use the GI/GL diet method as I find this better than just eating GI foods without any reference to the overall load and effect on my Bg levels.

So John......thanks for that, but as they say, "I'll take a raincheck on that one !' :twisted:

QWelcome to the forum BTW....... :wink:

 

[Gadge]

Welcome to the site, howardjohn. What is a Carb Requirement? Requirement for what? That makes it sound like carbs are essential - are they?

Do you not need a certain amount of Carbs to convert to energy, otherwise wouldn’t you be drowsy throughout the day?

I will soon be working 38 hours a week in an environment which forces me to move around a busy hospital, I'm 23 years old with Diabetes type 2, my BMI is only slightly over in which I have reduced my partition sizes and the weight is dropping off.

My sugar levels are far from perfect but I have only recently been diagnosed so i'm still working on balancing this out.

I am genuinely interested on what alternatives there are to keep you going throughout the working day, espically since the easist thing to do is to just pick up a quick sandwich during the lunch break.

 

[howardjohn]

Hi
When I said carbohydrates de mystified I guess I mystified the situation! What I meant was there are 3 food groups, fat, protein, and carbohydrates. We all eat from all three groups. We cant exist on just fat and protein we all have to eat the occasional healthy carrot (about 5 grams of carbohydrate) so carbs are unavoidable.

Carbs give us energy, when you run out of carbs in your system (the wall) your body starts to break down fat for energy then muscle. A fairly drastic way of loosing weight and dangerous for us under weight diabetics!

How much energy you need is determined by your age, your body mass index and level of activity this was the point of the carb calculator, to help you to determine the correct number of carbs.

Also the GI index helps us to make more informed choices about which carbs to choose, but the final decision is down to the individual and their BG test results.

We all have to count the actual carbs we consume and limit them to energy needs.

Something I dont understand is: for breakfast I eat 30 grams of bran flakes with skimmed milk, 2 walnuts, cup of de caff coffee with skimmed milk this is 31 grams of carbohydrates. How do you limit yourself to 60 grams of carbs a day?

 

[cugila]

Something I dont understand is: for breakfast I eat 30 grams of bran flakes with skimmed milk, 2 walnuts, cup of de caff coffee with skimmed milk this is 31 grams of carbohydrates. How do you limit yourself to 60 grams of carbs a day?

It's very simple really........I don't eat much cereal at all.......only on odd days when I am feeling brave ! in any case I certainly wouldn't have as many carbs as you do for breakfast. A good plate of Bacon, Egg, Mushrooms and maybe the odd slice of bread satisfies me and also keeps my Bg levels way down. Maximum about 20g carbs usually.

After that a snack at lunchtime consisting of around 10g carbs which leaves me plenty of choice for an evening meal containing about 30g carbs. Some days it is even less. As I said before I am not a low carber by any means....I just reduce them to the minimum I need to keep me active, healthy, and well controlled.

On here many of the established members use various methods to achieve good Diabetic control. Nobody here advocates that you should eat a certain diet....we all do just what is good for the individual. Your way might work well for you, however any way that works for the individual is a good thing. Low carb, high carb, low fat, high fat, low GI/GL high GI/GL......not really bothered what people do....it is the end result that counts and if you look at the success stories here there are many who must be doing something right whatever method they choose.

Many tell us of weight loss, reduced or no Meds, complete changes in lifestyle, health improvements....the list goes on. They don't all use GI methods.......yet they get the results.

I like my method LowGI/GL and reduced consumption of fats. Works for me.

Sue and I also give out advice to others who are newly diagnosed to reduce the carbs etc along with various other means. Most who have read that advice seem to think it is a good grounding which can allow new members to get better control and then when more confident, experiment with the other ways available. So.....one diet that suits all is not something I could go along with.

Everybody has to work out what works for them by frequent testing in the first instance...then when they know what foods are bad/good they can adjust their diet accordingly. I doubt very much that anybody here eats an unhealthy diet. At least not if their results are anything to go by.

 

[Patch]

We cant exist on just fat and protein

Why not? There are plemty of vegetable that are low in sugar/carbs (Brocolli, Cauliflower, Spinach - anything Green is AWESOME).

Try thinking ouside of the box a little. Experiment.

Do you not need a certain amount of Carbs to convert to energy, otherwise wouldn’t you be drowsy throughout the day?

There is no evidence that we need ANY carbs at all. But you're right - sandwiches/wraps, etc... ARE convenient. (But then so are pies & pasties! :wink: )

 

[hanadr]

No-one has ever been able to demonstrate scientifically that carbs are essential in the diet. In just the same way no-one has demonstrated that fats are harmful.
There is a belief, unsubstantiated, that you must eat carbs for your brain fuel. However, brains can run on ketones and your liver can make as much carb as you need from the protein you eat.
It is therefore perfectly possible to remain healthy on a carb free diet for at least a year. That study was done by V. Steffanson in 1926. the diet consisted of nothing but fatty meat.
However, In a mixed diet, it's near impossible to avoid all carbs. If you read American material, you have the added complication that Americans count indigestible vegetable fibre as a carbohydrate, which chemically it is. BRitish material only considers digestible carbs as such in their data.
Hana

 

[noblehead]

It is therefore perfectly possible to remain healthy on a carb free diet for at least a year. That study was done by V. Steffanson in 1926. the diet consisted of nothing but fatty meat.
Hana

:shock: Think I'll stick to a well balanced diet thanks all the same!

Nigel

 

[the_anticarb]

Welcome to the site, howardjohn. What is a Carb Requirement? Requirement for what? That makes it sound like carbs are essential - are they?

Do you not need a certain amount of Carbs to convert to energy, otherwise wouldn’t you be drowsy throughout the day?

I will soon be working 38 hours a week in an environment which forces me to move around a busy hospital, I'm 23 years old with Diabetes type 2, my BMI is only slightly over in which I have reduced my partition sizes and the weight is dropping off.

My sugar levels are far from perfect but I have only recently been diagnosed so i'm still working on balancing this out.

I am genuinely interested on what alternatives there are to keep you going throughout the working day, espically since the easist thing to do is to just pick up a quick sandwich during the lunch break.

To give my tuppence worth on the carbs and energy debate, well when I started low carbing I admit I did feel a bit flat the first few weeks. But the human body is an amazing thing because i believe it can adapt to whatever fuel source it is given, and after a few weeks I had more energy than before.

Remember the measure of energy in a food is CALORIES not carbs. Your body is perfectly able to convert fat, protein etc to energy and does not need carbs for this. But it does feel strange at first until it gets used to running on a different fuel source which is why i think the 'you need carbs for energy' myth persists

I

 

[clearviews]

*****************Do you not need a certain amount of Carbs to convert to energy, otherwise wouldn’t you be drowsy throughout the day? **************** this information was what we have been taught for decades and seems to be not helpful for diabetics amongst others.

I have noted at seminars that the drowsy ones are the ones who HAVE eaten carbs for lunch (sandwiches, biscuits, crackers, pasta) while I eat the innards and throw the bread and DON'T get drowsy. I am approaching 59 and can do an intense 12 hour shift at a fire front in gruelling conditions and don't run out of energy before my carb fuelled crews.
Alison

 

[phoenix]

I have noted at seminars that the drowsy ones are the ones who HAVE eaten carbs for lunch (sandwiches, biscuits, crackers, pasta)

In other words, high energy food.... high carbs and high fat, and probably not good quality sources of either, high easily assimable calories. No you don't need that to sit and listen to a seminar. A sedentary person is not making use of their intramuscular and hepatic glycogen stores forcing the excess to be stored as fat (and raise glucose levels in the process.) Exercise of any intensity will use these stores and they need replacing.
As I've said before, if I increase my exercise then I have to increase my carbs and decrease my insuln. (exercisng muscles require very little insulin to uptake glucose)
A weeks backpacking was fueled by lots of carbs and a third less insulin and I lost a bit of weight! The same is true for running, if I get over 20 miles a week I 'need' more carbs. Obviously insulin complicates things, even with a pump it's not always possible to reduce the insulin quickly enough .

I've linked to this article before, I'll include some quotes this time. The writer, has T1, is the author of The Diabtic Athlete' and is a reseacher into the effects of exercise and diabetes, recently focusing particularly on T2. She isn't against lower carb diets ,far from .
http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/index. ... 1&Itemid=8

If carbs are available, your body will use them over fats, especially as your workout gets more intense. It simply comes down to how the body works, and using carbs is more fuel efficient -- that is, you get more energy out of carbs for a given quantity of oxygen (5.05 vs. 4.7 calories per gram for carbs and fats, respectively). Carbs are like using a higher-octane fuel, resulting in more miles to the gallon. If you want to exercise intensely and you eat a low-carb diet, you will simply not be able to perform at the highest level possible...............

It does take 24 to 48 hours to fully restore the muscle glycogen that you deplete during exercise, but that time frame assumes that you're eating adequate amounts of carbs. If you're on a low-carb dietary regimen, it will inevitably take longer than expected, and you may be trying to do your next workout with less muscle and liver glycogen available................

Do you really need to restrict carbs so severely if you're exercising regularly? Probably not. Even people with Type 2 diabetes will be able to handle carbs better when doing regular physical activity that depletes some muscle glycogen (the main storage depot for excess carbohydrate consumption), and they may feel less tired and more energetic when eating some carbs during and/or after exercise in particular to speed up muscle glycogen repletion. On rest days, a lower carb diet is certainly better for everyone (even people without diabetes)................

I have to reiterate, though, that your body cannot process fat as quickly or as efficiently as carbs during exercise (the lower number of calories derived from oxygen per gram of fat is a non-disputable fact), so you will never reach your peak performance for high-intensity exercise relying on fats alone. If you can still do less intense exercise as well as you'd like to while using more fats than carbs and optimal performance is not your concern, then a low-carb lifestyle and moderate exercise may work just fine for you

 

[clearviews]

I used the example of seminars where I have observed people who have partaken of a carby interlude nod off only as an example of a captive audience. No, they don't need the carbs to sit and listen, however they fall asleep or doze and I don't. That is the difference. They might miss the important bits while they are asleep, I don't as I am not asleep and don't get drowsy from a low carb lunch.

I also indicated that while performing under extreme conditions where one's life depends having enough energy to function, the low carb option does not place me at a disadvantage alongside a person fuelled primarily on carbs. My energy levels are not dimished on a low carb lifestyle. It is a misconception that we NEED carbs to perform in a demanding occupation.
Alison

 

[Patch]

Right-on Alison.

I don't understand the fascination with carbs as a "high energy" food. Unless you are going to be expending a LOT of energy, why do you need a high energy food???

It's like putting rocket fuel in a Corsa to drive to the shops!!! :lol:

 

[noblehead]

It just goes to prove what we say on this forum time and time again........'we are all different'........'what works for one may not necessarily work for another'!

When I tried low-carb (albeit 8 weeks) I had no energy whatsoever and felt like death warmed-up, it wasn't until I increased my carbs to 100-130g on average that I regained that energy back, occasionally when I fall below this level my energy levels fall again and I feel weak and tired, so moderate carbs and low-gi is the way forward for me thanks! :wink:

Nigel

 

[cugila]

I used the example of seminars where I have observed people who have partaken of a carby interlude nod off only as an example of a captive audience. No, they don't need the carbs to sit and listen, however they fall asleep or doze and I don't. That is the difference. They might miss the important bits while they are asleep, I don't as I am not asleep and don't get drowsy from a low carb lunch.
There seems to be an assumption here that it is carbs which made these people 'doze off.' Were they all Diabetic ? Were they all just not interested in what may have been a boring seminar, didn't want to be there and were just 'day dreaming ?' Many many years before I was a Diabetic I could drop off quite happily in a boring lecture without having eaten a high carb meal......also if they had been out the night before maybe they were just naturally tired, couple that with boredom and it is quite a natural reaction to just switch off.........One shouldn't assume too much you know, it can often be misleading.........

I am sure you are a dedicated and highly motivated individual, proud of what you do but I really don't think we can assume that if somebody falls asleep somewhere it is because they had a sandwich or two. There are many more possible variables than that. Did you question each of them as to what they had been doing previous to the seminar, maybe some of them had been working hard and not to put too fine a point on it were just plain knackered ! It happens.


I also indicated that while performing under extreme conditions where one's life depends having enough energy to function, the low carb option does not place me at a disadvantage alongside a person fuelled primarily on carbs. My energy levels are not dimished on a low carb lifestyle. It is a misconception that we NEED carbs to perform in a demanding occupation.
Alison

In my Professional life I too performed all sorts of tasks, some mundane, many life and death, under high pressure and was continually asked to do things most 'normal' individuals would shy away from, because I had the requisite skills, I was highly motivated, or sometimes just being plain scared stiff I was going to get hurt by what I had to do. Looking down the barrel of a gun is not for the faint hearted ! My duty, my job........

I never thought because some of my colleagues were conspicuous by their absence that it was because they had had a high carb meal........only one of them was a Diabetic and his workload would put many to shame. He just did it. We used to work hard, play hard and if the opportunity for a 'nap' arose at some point.....we took it. Avoiding boring seminars and lectures was just part of the game. :wink:

As a Diabetic on a reduced carb diet (Low GI/GL and Low fat) I too have energy levels I never dreamed of before. I still have the odd sandwich or two, still eat some carbs when I feel like it. That doesn't in any way make me drowsy, lack energy......quite the opposite. Too much sometimes......get's me in a heap of trouble ! :twisted:

So Alison.....some of us do use carbs for energy, still have great Diabetic control, good Bg levels and have also reduced meds to much lower levels. You see despite what some would have you believe some of us HAVE to take meds, because of our own personal metabolism and also in my case because I prefer to. I have a very varied and satisfying menu......I like it that way. I also appreciate that there is more to life than just thinking no carbs for me.......I live my life to the full.


Patch.
Those of us with good control aren't fascinated by 'high carbs' as fuel, personally I eat just the amount of carbs I want which suits me fine. Usually just low/medium carbs. NOT high. There are only certain individuals who are fascinated by the thought that some of us can eat SOME carbs....
Lets hope this doesn't descend into another high carbs/low carbs debate.....although I am sure that will run and run. I would love to know just what 'high carbs' actually means or is it just anybody who eats more than somebidy else ? If somebody wants to low carb, ultra low carb.....great. If they don't....that's fine with me too. Maybe sometimes I have a bit more fuel than I need......just means I have sufficient energy to keep me going.....when the going gets tough. That hasn't happened so far and technically at 60-80g carbs per day I don't low carb.

A Corsa with Rocket fuel.....now there's a thought........ :lol:

 

[phoenix]

It's like putting rocket fuel in a Corsa to drive to the shops!!!

Better to put the fuel in your body, leave the car in the garage and walk or get on your bike!

 

[hanadr]

Sorry folks! :wink:
Protein and carb release 4 Calories per gram. Fats release 9 Calories per gram.
Carbs are released Fast and fats take longer.
There is NO dietary requireement for carbs and no such thing as a "Well balanced diet" Tha idea comes from the Food pyramid first invented in the USA and based on guesswork NOT SCIENCE.
We've been indoctrinated for so long that many people take this idea as gospel. Try searching out the evidence. I've been hunting it for years and failed to find anything.
I can say from my own experiences as a scientist, that we don't have a mechanism for digesting raw starches. Since cooking only evolved about 10,000 years ago, we obviously didn't evolve eating starch.
Hana

 

[catherinecherub]

I eat 90 to 120 carbs per day. I have excellent control and am medication free. Am I harming myself?
I don't think that I am. I have a job that requires high energy levels and am a very busy person when not working. When I read some posters say that carbs are "evil" and similar descriptions of them, I am bewildered. I will say that there are good and bad carbs for diabetics but that does not mean that all carbs are bad. I don't suggest that everyone should eat the amount that I do are nor would I suggest that anyone is right or wrong on the subject of an ideal number of carbs. Eat to your meter and you won't go far wrong. Do what is right for you as you cannot manage other people's diabetes.

As for when starches in diets evolved, this article puts it further back,

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/wellbei ... 16tac.html

"Residues found were rich in starch and would provide a good source of carbs and energy".