Carbs and the GI - "total" insulin loading

[phoenix]

I've been thinking about the pasta/eggs/cheese conundrum over night.
I don't think its odd that either cheese or eggs have a glycemic response. When you eat a food containing protein it converts some of it to glucose but this takes time.I don't think that this is the glucose causing the rise in glucose levels. I think this comes from the glucose released by the liver to 'compensate' for the insulin released when protein is eaten. It isn't a very large rise (it would be good to see the graph too see it visually)

What is surprising is the similarly very low rise also caused by the white pasta. This morning I looked at the list of products used and think I've found a possible explanation. They used pasta spirals cooked for 8 min and then cooled to 4C. Then possibly this reheated in a microwave.( the list is not absolutely clear on this)
1) The pasta would be very 'al dente' which lowers GI
2) When starches are cooked the starch molecules become more easily absorbed by the body (gelatinisation) However when they are then cooled some of the starch molecules form tight crystals called resistant starch. (retrograde starch) These are not easily absorbed by the body so this lowers the GI considerably.
3) If it were served cold this would probably explain it (given that some white pastas are lowish GI anyway.).
4) If it was microwaved I don't really know how this would effect resistant starches . Logic says they would become less resistant, however, I found this (don't know how much credence to give it):

RS3 - The most resistant kind. Starch, mostly amylose, that becomes resistant to digestion when heated then cooled. Also known as retrograded starch. Examples are cooled cooked potatoes and beans. Amounts in pasta vary and are dependant upon the structure of the pasta, and heating and cooling times.

Boiling RS3 will not easily free it for digestion, as it will RS2. In fact, moist heating will encourage the starch molecules to swell then rearrange themselves as they cool, making this starch almost entirely resistant to digestion by pancreatic amylases. Another unique feature of RS3 ... repeated heating and cooling cycles will further increase the RS content

http://fanaticcook.blogspot.fr/2008/01/ ... tarch.html

Actually it is worth looking at what was actually eaten in that study. I thought the lentils should have had lower effect on the glucose levels until I discovered that they were served in a tomato sauce.(how much sugar in that sauce?)

Borofergie:

I'd therefore be interested to see what happened to my insulin levels, now that my metabolic machinery is set up to process less than 10g of carb a meal. We talked the other day about how people eating a large quantity of carbs after eating a ketonic diet had paticularly poor insulin responses, this is probably the reason why

Kurt Harris weighs in on this is in a discussion on Richard Nikoley's blog(Free the Animal :The moderate starch Experiment)

 

[borofergie]

I've been thinking about the pasta/eggs/cheese conundrum over night.
I don't think its odd that either cheese or eggs have a glycemic response. When you eat a food containing protein it converts some of it to glucose but this takes time.I don't think that this is the glucose causing the rise in glucose levels. I think this comes from the glucose released by the liver to 'compensate' for the insulin released when protein is eaten. It isn't a very large rise (it would be good to see the graph too see it visually)

Now that is interesting, I hadn't thought of it like that. The rise in insulin causes a hepatic glucose response, which makes sense, like most control systems it's based on lots of small responses to keep the system in balance. Goes to show you that it is a lot more complex than Taubes would have you believe.

These are all second order responses, but it goes to show the benefit of including some fat in the meal.

I'd therefore be interested to see what happened to my insulin levels, now that my metabolic machinery is set up to process less than 10g of carb a meal. We talked the other day about how people eating a large quantity of carbs after eating a ketonic diet had paticularly poor insulin responses, this is probably the reason why

Kurt Harris weighs in on this is in a discussion on Richard Nikoley's blog(Free the Animal :The moderate starch Experiment)[/quote]

Thanks Phoenix. I'm supposed to be filling a skip while me wife is out this morning, now I'll be in trouble for spending all morning reading blogs instead... :wink:

 

[Grazer]

I think this comes from the glucose released by the liver to 'compensate' for the insulin released when protein is eaten. It isn't a very large rise (it would be good to see the graph too see it visually)

Getting there in my understanding! Except that the rise does seem to be significant in the tables you sent. 60 gams of cheddar had a "Area Under Curve" glucose score in 2 hours post prandial of 42. French fries had AUC of 70 from 93 grams - weight for weight almost the same! As most of us wouldn't think chips non-consequential, then neither would be cheese. 60 grams of cheddar isn't much! Anyone volunteer to fast, test, then eat cheese, then test?

 

[phoenix]

The AUC glucose after eggs was 36+/- 11
The AUC glucose after cheese was 42+/- 10
For the same group of people
The AUC glucose after white bread was 121+/- 19
so less than a third of the white bread

For the chips (and these were precooked 'oven chips' so high in retrograde starch again and fat!)
The AUC was 77+/- 15
For the same group of people (different to the first)
The AUC glucose after white bread was 159+/- 29
about half of white bread.

Got to go shopping. I really think if we could see the curves you might see a difference. I also wonder if eating these things individually after a 12 hour fast also alters the results somewhat.
Now I really have to go shopping or I will be in trouble

 

[xyzzy]

Anyone volunteer to fast, test, then eat cheese, then test?

Coming late to this. Saw the thread but stupidly assumed that because it had insulin in the title it must be T1 stuff.

All very interesting stuff and I've sat and read the background pdf. Like Grazer I am a bit suspect of the responses given to eggs and cheese.

So for example using some recent experimental data i.e. me!

I have the same breakfast of a bit of plain yoghurt and "berries" everyday (boring but hate breakfast).

Have lunch usually the same time ish each day.

20/4 3 small egg omlette with 25g chopped chicken tikka & 40g chopped ham 2g ish 300 cals ish prior was 5.1 2 hours 5.1
16/4 3 small egg omlette with 50g cheese & 40g chopped ham 1g carb ish 450 cals ish prior was 5.0 2 hours 5.2
13/4 3 small egg omlette with 50g cheese & 40g chopped ham 1g carb ish 450 cals ish prior was 4.8 2 hours 4.6
4/4 2 poached eggs with cheese and ham 1g carb ish 385 cals prior was 5.1 2 hours 5.1

So factoring in the meters inherent inaccuracy it looks like cheese and eggs never give me a response at all, at least over 2 hours. I'll try and remember to do a few one hour readings to see if I'm missing a spike that vanishes quickly

I like the Insulin response idea though. It's nice and fundamental and sits fits below any dietary considerations. Works nicely alongside eat to your meter in my head.

Phoenix I will also try your pasta theory of heat - cool - heat versus just heat and let you know the result. I'll doit with 50g of pasta.

 

[borofergie]

Phoenix I will also try your pasta theory of heat - cool - heat versus just heat and let you know the result. I'll doit with 50g of pasta.

Are you in the "I've just got a bright shiney new HbA1c, and nothing I eat now will influence the next one" phase?

 

[xyzzy]

Phoenix I will also try your pasta theory of heat - cool - heat versus just heat and let you know the result. I'll doit with 50g of pasta.

Are you in the "I've just got a bright shiney new HbA1c, and nothing I eat now will influence the next one" phase?

Yep kind of I suppose but I am genuinely interested in finding stuff out. I see it similar to what I did to get my BG safe Indian takeaway. Took me 8 attempts but now have it sussed. If you're going to do all this testing and counting and other stuff you may as well have a bit of fun at the same time.

 

[phoenix]

xyz, potatoes are supposed to form quite a bit of resistant starch when cooled. I think the type of wheat used in the pasta may make a difference.

 

[xyzzy]

xyz, potatoes are supposed to form quite a bit of resistant starch when cooled. I think the type of wheat used in the pasta may make a difference.

That's also very interesting. I might be a bit more circumspect with potato. Its the one I have real double digit spikes with the last time I tried but for the sake of humanity I'll think about making the sacrifice. I suppose I could have the gin handy just in case

The only reason I am wary is not that one spike will harm but I notice if I promote any kind of major insulin response it can take two or three days for my averages to recover even from just one meal.

Stephen mentioned a similar thing to me a while back.