Carbs-independent remission

[Oldvatr]

He would have no issue with oatmeal, being a staunch believer that carbs are not the root of the problem.

I know someone who is a staunch believer that the earth is flat. It does not mean they are right. The number of people reporting how oatmeal affected their bgl control is quite significant. Insulin users are able to eat oats. but many T2D cannot. Note: T2D who do not test their bgl also report they can eat oats, and this is sadly a status that most T2D are in unless they self fund. Many T2D rely on HbA1c as being their control yardstick. in the wider T2D world beyond this forum it is common for most T2D to remain in blissfull ignorance especially the average GP practice patient until they need to use insulin. That was my status until I was referred to the hospital for insulin training 8 years ago.

 

[chrisjohnh]

Low carb. I was in remission by my HbA1c a year later.
I already knew that low cal diets only work for a certain amount of time as I had done them for years. I did starvation diets back when they were said to be bad for you.

And had you lost at least 10 or 15kg by the end of that year? And can you estimate how long you had had T2D prior to diagnosis?

 

[zand]

And had you lost at least 10 or 15kg by the end of that year? And can you estimate how long you had had T2D prior to diagnosis?

Not sure how much I had lost. I'll have to get back to you on that one as I'm going out to play walking football now.
As for how long I had had T2...it depends on your definition of what T2 is. I had only just tipped into T2 BG levels but I estimate I had been Insulin resistant for over 25 years.

 

[chrisjohnh]

I suspect I'd had IR for many years too. Pity we're not routinely tested for signs of looming diabetes.

 

[HSSS]

May I ask how you dealt with the condition in the first few months after diagnosis and with what outcome at the end of that period?

I immediately went keto on diagnosis at 55mmol. Reached remission in 3 months whilst still losing weight which reached 20kg in around 6months from memory. Stayed in remission and constant weight for 3+ yrs. Then the carbs crept up, life happened in various ways. The levels started to rise, then the weight did.

 

[zand]

And had you lost at least 10 or 15kg by the end of that year? And can you estimate how long you had had T2D prior to diagnosis?

I can't be sure to be honest. I lost maybe 6 or 7 kg in that first year.

 

[chrisjohnh]

I know someone who is a staunch believer that the earth is flat. It does not mean they are right. The number of people reporting how oatmeal affected their bgl control is quite significant. Insulin users are able to eat oats. but many T2D cannot. Note: T2D who do not test their bgl also report they can eat oats, and this is sadly a status that most T2D are in unless they self fund. Many T2D rely on HbA1c as being their control yardstick. in the wider T2D world beyond this forum it is common for most T2D to remain in blissfull ignorance especially the average GP practice patient until they need to use insulin. That was my status until I was referred to the hospital for insulin training 8 years ago.

After being coded in remission I decided to try porridge breakfasts again, just three times per week, and have done so for over 18 months. Each such breakfast amounts to 40g carbs including 24g carbs from the porridge. My bg rises by max 2 mmol/l and returns to baseline of about 5.8 after 2 hours. I think this indicates that I have normalised hepatic IR, normalised functional beta cell mass and normalised first phase response. So enabling me to eat a normalised breakfast. I think this is owed to having quickly lost over 15kg after diagnosis, all exactly as Taylor postulated. But of course I cannot be sure this is the correct interpretation of the experience, because I have not had the requisite tests, including scans, to confirm or disconfirm it.

 

[chrisjohnh]

I can't be sure to be honest. I lost maybe 6 or 7 kg in that first year.

Losing twice that in half the time might have produced a better long term trajectory A1c-wise - we cannot know. But these days I’d advise any new T2D to aim for 15kg loss really fast, utterly ruthlessly.

 

[pixie1]

To be clear here, if you increase your carb intake then do you also reduce your fat and/or protein intake? I mean by amount in g, not by percentage composition?

No, carbohydrates creep into my diet basically, when that happens both glucose levels and weight rises. Reduce carbs, both go down.
I want to lose a bit more weight now, 7lb. For me to achieve this, is to reduce my carb intake lower and increase my activities. I play walking football and proper five a side football and need to lose weight for this, this should up my metabolic rate. I camp and walk, as well, but not as much as i did do, that will change and do my winter camping again.

 

[chrisjohnh]

No, carbohydrates creep into my diet basically, when that happens both glucose levels and weight rises. Reduce carbs, both go down.
I want to lose a bit more weight now, 7lb. For me to achieve this, is to reduce my carb intake lower and increase my activities. I play walking football and proper five a side football and need to lose weight for this, this should up my metabolic rate. I camp and walk, as well, but not as much as i did do, that will change and do my winter camping again.

So when you remarked earlier that when you increased your carbs your weight also increased, this had nothing to do with carbs as such, but was just a comment that if one eats more overall then weight gain ensues - yes?

 

[chrisjohnh]

I immediately went keto on diagnosis at 55mmol. Reached remission in 3 months whilst still losing weight which reached 20kg in around 6months from memory. Stayed in remission and constant weight for 3+ yrs. Then the carbs crept up, life happened in various ways. The levels started to rise, then the weight did.

It is indeed a striking sequence of events!

 

[pixie1]

So when you remarked earlier that when you increased your carbs your weight also increased, this had nothing to do with carbs as such, but was just a comment that if one eats more overall then weight gain ensues - yes?

You have only mentioned weight. I wrote Both glucose levels and weight went up. Carbohydrates are the most biggest issue. I cannot tolerate them, They are the very reason why I am a diabetic.

 

[pixie1]

I was diagnosed at 53mmol; I went straight on to a low carb diet, after 3 months my HbA1c went down to 48, consequently I lost weight. My last HbA1c was 44. I am sure I would be on meds and insulin if I had listened to the advice given that I had to have carbs to function. The carbs are the problem.

 

[HSSS]

It is indeed a striking sequence of events!

Which contradict your hypothesis that remission (or loss of) is weight driven rather than carb led. Maybe I should be introduced to prof Taylor.

 

[zand]

Losing twice that in half the time might have produced a better long term trajectory A1c-wise - we cannot know. But these days I’d advise any new T2D to aim for 15kg loss really fast, utterly ruthlessly.

And this is where I have the problem with what you are saying. I had been dieting for very many years. Very low cal diets stopped working for me., that's why I became obese. Walking a couple of miles (at least) daily stopped working for me. You can't keep reducing calories forever. I tried, I just got ill. I was putting on 7 pounds a year. The year I stopped dieting and ate what I wanted was the year I actually lost 7 pounds!

I didn't wait for my health to deteriorate before I tried to lose weight, I didn't become T2 and then decide to do something about it. I can't understand those who wait for something to go wrong before they act. I had always tried to stay slim, but I didn't know how. My body hadn't read any of the manuals so it didn't behave like the books said it should.

I could aim for 15 kg weightloss but just aiming for a target and starving myself didn't mean I would achieve that target. My body said No.

Then I stumbled upon low carb and it worked.

 

[pixie1]

Which contradict your hypothesis that remission (or loss of) is weight driven rather than carb led. Maybe I should be introduced to prof Taylor.

I am starting to think that he is trying to get the answers to fit Taylors hypothesis. We all know that starvation diets do not work and low calorie diet is used for people to rapidly lose weight pre op, to get rid of fat. This is not a long term solution. ND should not be used as along term solution, because no one can continue long term on low calorie diet. The failure rate would be 100%. Adapted eating habits aka, low carb would have to be introduced, if weight loss is needed or remission. weight loss and remission are two separate things,( I think that intolerance to carbs, and the inability to break down glucose starts at normal weight, the body stores carbs as fat Nor the is adopted to be carb loaded. Dr Atkin proved this. )
The body is not designed for low calorie diet or starvation, the mechanism which evolved for survival, hangs on to it.
The science is not static, it evolves when more knowledge is gained. What my seem correct, ten years later, it may change. In my opinion the experts are behind, the science and still lack knowledge, however there are more enlightened people in the forefront. Unfortunatley Dr Unwin is no longer used within the NHS.
Dr Taylor has a long way to go.

 

[chrisjohnh]

I am starting to think that he is trying to get the answers to fit Taylors hypothesis. We all know that starvation diets do not work and low calorie diet is used for people to rapidly lose weight pre op, to get rid of fat. This is not a long term solution. ND should not be used as along term solution, because no one can continue long term on low calorie diet. The failure rate would be 100%. Adapted eating habits aka, low carb would have to be introduced, if weight loss is needed or remission. weight loss and remission are two separate things,( I think that intolerance to carbs, and the inability to break down glucose starts at normal weight, the body stores carbs as fat Nor the is adopted to be carb loaded. Dr Atkin proved this. )
The body is not designed for low calorie diet or starvation, the mechanism which evolved for survival, hangs on to it.
The science is not static, it evolves when more knowledge is gained. What my seem correct, ten years later, it may change. In my opinion the experts are behind, the science and still lack knowledge, however there are more enlightened people in the forefront. Unfortunatley Dr Unwin is no longer used within the NHS.
Dr Taylor has a long way to go.

I should stress that I am not wedded to the Taylor model of T2D causation and remedy, and I do think that team’s research and publications have questionable elements. I would only go as far as saying I think there is much there that is worthy of consideration.

I do take issue with the above comments that the Taylor model expects that maintaining remission long term requires “low calorie” diets, whatever they might be. As far as I can tell, the expectation is only that one should eat a bit less - about three quarters - of what one was eating in the lead-up to developing T2D, in other words to be just a bit more conservative, to eat just enough to fuel one’s energy needs. Take my own case. Before diagnosis I was eating at least 2500 cals daily. To achieve remission I reduced this by about half. Then, during the 18 months since then I reverted to 2000 daily - hardly “low calorie” - and my weight has never risen, nor do I expect it ever to do so. Why on earth should it? When is this bizarre weight regain meant to happen to me? In another 6 months? A year? Two years? I don’t believe it.

 

[bulkbiker]

I should stress that I am not wedded to the Taylor model of T2D causation and remedy, and I do think that team’s research and publications have questionable elements. I would only go as far as saying I think there is much there that is worthy of consideration.

I do take issue with the above comments that the Taylor model expects that maintaining remission long term requires “low calorie” diets, whatever they might be. As far as I can tell, the expectation is only that one should eat a bit less - about three quarters - of what one was eating in the lead-up to developing T2D, in other words to be just a bit more conservative, to eat just enough to fuel one’s energy needs. Take my own case. Before diagnosis I was eating at least 2500 cals daily. To achieve remission I reduced this by about half. Then, during the 18 months since then I reverted to 2000 daily - hardly “low calorie” - and my weight has never risen, nor do I expect it ever to do so. Why on earth should it? When is this bizarre weight regain meant to happen to me? In another 6 months? A year? Two years? I don’t believe it.

When you try your increased carb experiment you may well find out...

 

[HSSS]

I should stress that I am not wedded to the Taylor model of T2D causation and remedy, and I do think that team’s research and publications have questionable elements. I would only go as far as saying I think there is much there that is worthy of consideration.

I do take issue with the above comments that the Taylor model expects that maintaining remission long term requires “low calorie” diets, whatever they might be. As far as I can tell, the expectation is only that one should eat a bit less - about three quarters - of what one was eating in the lead-up to developing T2D, in other words to be just a bit more conservative, to eat just enough to fuel one’s energy needs. Take my own case. Before diagnosis I was eating at least 2500 cals daily. To achieve remission I reduced this by about half. Then, during the 18 months since then I reverted to 2000 daily - hardly “low calorie” - and my weight has never risen, nor do I expect it ever to do so. Why on earth should it? When is this bizarre weight regain meant to happen to me? In another 6 months? A year? Two years? I don’t believe it.

And again as my own experiment of one at your stage everything was hunky dory for me. I actually increased calories when I lost weight/got remission because the fat I replaced carbs with had more - but I was able to use the fat ones instead of store them.

It’s not bizarre just because you personally haven’t experienced it - yet. Several of us have told you our experience and you mock us? Or is it just disbelief? Perhaps if your insulin resistance and carb intake carry on the way you are and are planning you’ll do just fine, or maybe you’ll get your own bizarre reaction as it builds up again over time once again.

Honestly I do believe there’s more than one type of type 2. Some respond to simple weight loss really well and that’s all they need to have normal responses. ive seen a number in here go from very high levels to in the 30’s on way way more carbs than me by losing a few stone (like yourself). Whereas I lost lots and cut cubs an awful lot only managed from mid 50’s to low 40’s. Some just don’t respond so well or need much more drastic intervention and I believe there are other, genetic?, issues as play with the likes of me beyond just some visceral fat - which obviously won’t help either.

 

[zand]

We once had a person posting on here who appeared to think Professor Taylor was a god, as she had followed her version of the ND and got cured (from pre-diabetes I think).

She used to say she couldn't understand why many of us wouldn't try it and thought we didn't have the willpower. Like you she wanted carbs in her diet and thought that weight loss was the way to a cure.

She went away for a few months at a time and then would come back saying she needed to do the low cal stage again as her numbers were creeping up. To my knowledge she did the low cal stage 4 times, at least.

So much for the forever cure.

There have been one or two on here who used to eat very high cal diets and have got remission by eating what most of us would consider a normal portion of food, but for anyone who didn't overeat massively I can't see the ND working long term.