Carnivore questions

[JoKalsbeek]

Hey good people of the forum,

Forgive me if this is all over the place, and a tad long, but you know how I can ramble. And I'm out of my depth here, I need a little input. I've been dabbling a bit with Carnivore, and realised that that is exactly what I'm doing: Dabbling. I'm applying what I know about keto and fasting to an entirely different diet, and I have a feeling it's tripping me up. Just like you can't do "a little bit of keto", I'm guessing it's 100% carnivore or bust. Because the diets are so closely related far as carb counts go, I figured I'd do this: Carnivore during weekdays, keto on the weekends. Reason? It's really, REALLY hard to get a proper carnivorous meal at a cat café, which are often vegan/vegetarian establishments, or zoo's, where it's often either fries, highly processed carb-filled meat, or a salad... And the carbs aren't an option, leaving the leafy greens. My little outings keep me sane, quite literally, so just not going anywhere any more, isn't in the cards. At the same time, I was doing really well on carnivore. The keto flu was more brutal than what I'm used to, with nausea and dizziness rather than my usual mild headaches and joint pains, but okay... I was seeing perks within 2 weeks. Less migraines, less bloating, better skin, you get the idea. And slowly but steadily, losing weight. And then comes the weekend with a salad and a few carbs at a cat café. Still keto, but decidedly not carnivore. And the kilo I lost in the previous week is right back on my belly.

Now, my diabetes is pretty much all right on keto. No complaints there. So that's not my reason for the switch. I'm more concerned about possible other issues like leaky gut, for instance... I tend to tick a lot of boxes where that's concerned, the inexplicable weight gain being one of them, and I thought carnivore'd help. But then I'd have to get it RIGHT.

So, at the moment, I'm still eating pretty much in the same pattern as I did on keto: skip breakfast, have lunch late or not at all, and dinner around 5 or 6 pm. That's perfectly fine on weekdays far as pure rhythm goes, but on the weekends we're out and about rather early, and being more active than I am at home, I get hungry between 10 and noon. If I'm "Out There In The World", carnivore may not be an option. Fasting would be. Now, I saw a video by Dr. Berry saying you can eat as much meat as you want and be 100% fine, no fasting required.... So, that said, I could start having big, and I do mean BIG breakfasts, so I can skip having to panic over lunches and truck on until dinner. I'd still be fasting, but I'd not have my usual 4 to 6 hour eating window, which was part of my keto regime. Any idea whether that'd work? It might be more doable/sustainable than what I'm trying now. I want the cafe's and the zoo's to have the revenue of my lunches, what with everyone struggling with Covid-19, but truth is, I can't carry the weight of the world on my shoulders.... If I have to stick with my tea or sparkling water, I guess I'll have to. (I'll just compensate in the gift shop or something)

As always, advice is contradictory and I don't know whom to listen to. Is there a carnivore equivalent of Dr. Jason Fung's The Diabetes Code? A proper Carni-bible I could delve into? And will I get put against a wall and shot if I have a square of 99% chocolate (less than 0,50 grams of carbs) to go with my dinner?

Thanks people!
Love,
Jo

 

[Indy51]

I haven't read either book myself, but there is Dr Shawn Baker's book "The Carnivore Diet" and Dr Paul Saladino's "The Carnivore Code". My personal feeling is that Baker is a much saner mentor than Saladino, but maybe that's just me.

Hopefully some of the forum's carnivores will be able to answer your other questions.

 

[Indy51]

There is also a work in progress by one of the original carnivores, Amber O'Hearn:

https://facultativecarnivore.com/

 

[JoKalsbeek]

I haven't read either book myself, but there is Dr Shawn Baker's book "The Carnivore Diet" and Dr Paul Saladino's "The Carnivore Code". My personal feeling is that Baker is a much saner mentor than Saladino, but maybe that's just me.

Hopefully some of the forum's carnivores will be able to answer your other questions.

Well, sane is good... That's just the thing, there's so much out there and I don't know who's talking out of their behind and who's making sense. And I'll give Amber a read too, thank you!

 

[Brunneria]

I would try to avoid overthinking it.

Carnivore (like keto) is actually a hundred different ways of doing it. You get people who swear blind that if you don't eat 100% pure grassfed ribeye, you are not a twue carnivore, then you get other who rock along happily on 97% carni (that would be me), and others who incorporate IF eating windows (a bit me), and keto fat macros (that would be me again) and those who say EAT AS MUCH MEAT AS YOU LIKE, and don't worry about the weight gain, cos you are just HEALING and if you trust the process, then it will all come right in the end (definitely not me!). And then you get the nose to tailers (sort of me), and the eat only a prehistoric dieters, the Paleomedicina people who don't bother with fish, forbid dairy and who think that raw calf brain is an excellent side dish (not me, though I did try)... as you can see, there is no One Twue Way (although just about everybody seems to think that their way is the Twue way).

I say do what works for you - and from your OP, it looks like avoiding the veg and salad and stuff at the weekends may be key.
So why not try the big carni breakfasts, and skipping lunch at the weekend, and see how you go?
But most importantly of all, don't sweat the detail. Don't get hung up on who does what, and whether some pod casting body builder without your personal medical history has some opinion on some small detail. Eat well, eat a fat to protein ratio that suits your digestion and your appetite, and enjoy a life without the obligatory greenery cluttering up the plate

My personal experience is that bone broth seems to have helped my gut tremendously (I went into Carni with major gut problems including inability to cope with any fibre and with malabsorption on several nutrients), but that won't necessarily have any relevance to you.

ed for typo

 

[bulkbiker]

I would give the big breakfast idea a try and just have a different weekend eating window. Breakfast and dinner.
Ham and eggs before going out will keep you full for most of the day and maybe supplement with some creamy coffee?
As for the square of dark choc I had 4 last night and wasn't struck down by the carnivore gods so...
Amber has published the first few chapters on her website I think.
https://facultativecarnivore.com
might well be worth a read.

 

[JoKalsbeek]

I would try to avoid overthinking it.

Carnivore (like keto) is actually a hundred different ways of doing it. You get people who swear blind that if you don't eat 100% pure grassfed ribeye, you are not a twue carnivore, then you get other who rock along happily on 97% carni (that would be me), and others who incorporate IF eating windows (a bit me), and keto fat macros (that would be me again) and those who say EAT AS MUCH MEAT AS YOU LIKE, and don't worry about the weight gain, cos you are just HEALING and if you trust the process, then it will all come right in the end (definitely not me!). And then you get the nose to tailers (sort of me), and the eat only a prehistoric dieters, the Paleomedicina people who don't bother with fish, and who think that raw calf brain is an excellent side dish (not me, though I did try)... as you can see, there is no One Twue Way (although just about everybody seems to think that their way is the Twue way).

I say do what works for you - and from your OP, it looks like avoiding the veg and salad and stuff at the weekends may be key.
So why not try the big carni breakfasts, and skipping lunch at the weekend, and see how you go?
But most importantly of all, don't sweat the detail. Don't get hung up on who does what, and whether some pod casting body builder without your personal medical history has some opinion on some small detail. Eat well, eat a fat to protein ratio that suits your digestion and your appetite, and enjoy a life without the obligatory greenery cluttering up the plate

My personal experience is that bone broth seems to have helped my gut tremendously (I went into Carni with major gut problems including inability to cope with any fibre and with malabsorption on several nutrients), but that won't necessarily have any relevance to you.

You know, I could cry. I keep feeling like this miserable failure trying to make a franken-diet work for me while missing some glorious all-healing miraculous point or something, but with everything coming at me I just didn't now what would work. And the whole time I'm puzzling it out, the same thing I've been telling other people for years now is still true (Or twue); Find what works for you. Or me, in this case. Plants don't work for me. That much I know now. Oof!

So, yeah... I'm beginning to feel a little more confident now. Thank you...!!!
Jo

 

[JoKalsbeek]

I would give the big breakfast idea a try and just have a different weekend eating window. Breakfast and dinner.
Ham and eggs before going out will keep you full for most of the day and maybe supplement with some creamy coffee?
As for the square of dark choc I had 4 last night and wasn't struck down by the carnivore gods so...
Amber has published the first few chapters on her website I think.
https://facultativecarnivore.com
might well be worth a read.

I'm at the end of the first chapter and I am liking this lady already. Nuts, just like me! (Different labels, but similar issues.) And good to know about the chocolate, because I just stocked up on some 99% bars.

Yeah, so... I can do this. I can make this work. I did it with LCHF, Keto and IF.... This is just another step in that direction.

Thank you!
Jo

 

[bulkbiker]

I'm at the end of the first chapter and I am liking this lady already. Nuts, just like me! (Different labels, but similar issues.) And good to know about the chocolate, because I just stocked up on some 99% bars.

Yeah, so... I can do this. I can make this work. I did it with LCHF, Keto and IF.... This is just another step in that direction.

Thank you!
Jo

And welcome to the loosely carnivore club!

Edit to add Amber has loads of great videos too

 

[JoKalsbeek]

And welcome to the loosely carnivore club!

Edit to add Amber has loads of great videos too

Thank you, I just hope I'll be able to remember the elaborate secret handshake. And I'll go over the video's when I'm done reading. So far it's excellent, thought provoking stuff.

 

[bulkbiker]

And welcome to the loosely carnivore club!

She has loads of great videos too.

Thank you, I just hope I'll be able to remember the elaborate secret handshake. And I'll go over the video's when I'm done reading. So far it's excellent, thought provoking stuff.

Yet another rabbit hole to dive into!

 

[Goonergal]

Hi Jo

I don't think there are hard and fast rules - you need to find what works for you.

For me, I feel better being as close to carnivore as possible - less joint pain; more energy; fewer cravings all that sort of stuff. However, I live in the real world and enjoy the odd piece (trouble is keeping it to the odd piece) of very dark chocolate; or a few nuts. Try to minimise those, but don't fret too much if they are occasionally over consumed. Equally, I refuse to give up onions - adore them and they are my one concession to carbs; in moderation (so much easier than with chocolate) but keeps me on track.

In terms of fasting - depends on your aims; ideally I like as long a period not eating as possible, which means skipping breakfast; but if attempting that will be difficult for whatever reason - ravenous early on; choices available later in the day; timetable etc, a large breakfast can keep me going for a long time and result in less consumption overall.

 

[DCUKMod]

@JoKalsbeek - Your thread just epitomises why I detest labels so much. I just hate that label can, just by it's very being, tell us we're failing when we're doing exceptionally well.

When talking about my own way of eating, I talk about it being "reduced carb". I rarely say low car, and have never striven to go keto consistently.

I have eaten keto levels of carbs, and I have done brief periods of carni. The only times I have been absolutely nailed on, totally carni was in preparation for a fast whilst travelling. It wasn't an enormous fast; about 48 hours, but I felt the in-flight food wouldn't be for me.

If you're stressing about whatever way you are eating, or living your life, that's unlikely to help anything along, whether blood scores or the battle with the scales.

 

[JoKalsbeek]

Hi Jo

I don't think there are hard and fast rules - you need to find what works for you.

For me, I feel better being as close to carnivore as possible - less joint pain; more energy; fewer cravings all that sort of stuff. However, I live in the real world and enjoy the odd piece (trouble is keeping it to the odd piece) of very dark chocolate; or a few nuts. Try to minimise those, but don't fret too much if they are occasionally over consumed. Equally, I refuse to give up onions - adore them and they are my one concession to carbs; in moderation (so much easier than with chocolate) but keeps me on track.

In terms of fasting - depends on your aims; ideally I like as long a period not eating as possible, which means skipping breakfast; but if attempting that will be difficult for whatever reason - ravenous early on; choices available later in the day; timetable etc, a large breakfast can keep me going for a long time and result in less consumption overall.

And again, I should've asked on here sooner, as you guys tend to make a whole lot of sense! YouTube video's often contain people who are doing nothing like what you mention: living in the real world. I need my diet/regime to be semi-flexible, but I just got so stuck in the fasting part of things, I forgot that I can opt not to fast, or fast in a different way. Or just eat or fast when it is the best thing to do so, considering the various aspects of the day/circumstances. For someone looking for flexibility, I am fairly inflexible in my thinking sometimes. What the Dutch call staring yourself blind.

Thank you!
Jo

 

[JoKalsbeek]

@JoKalsbeek - Your thread just epitomises why I detest labels so much. I just hate that label can, just by it's very being, tell us we're failing when we're doing exceptionally well.

When talking about my own way of eating, I talk about it being "reduced carb". I rarely say low car, and have never striven to go keto consistently.

I have eaten keto levels of carbs, and I have done brief periods of carni. The only times I have been absolutely nailed on, totally carni was in preparation for a fast whilst travelling. It wasn't an enormous fast; about 48 hours, but I felt the in-flight food wouldn't be for me.

If you're stressing about whatever way you are eating, or living your life, that's unlikely to help anything along, whether blood scores or the battle with the scales.

I guess it's not so much the labels, I use those for convenience and clarity... I just keep thinking, keto was for my bloodsugars.... Carnivore has a different goal, the sugars already sorted, with the possibility of fixing a permeable bowel, (and migraines, weight, and a bunch of other conditions,) but... If it's akin to gluten intolerance, I know a bit of it will shred a gut.... So how much can I get away with...? I know I'm not a coeliac, been tested for that four years ago, but everything else seems to be pointing the way of a leaky gut which is a kissing cousin to it, and it'll be a while before I can ask my GP for a test, not to mention not being all too sure she even "believes in" that particular condition as an option. So it's a matter of guesswork. Again. Anyway, massive salads seem to be out, but a small tuft of greens served with my eggs or steak? No idea. Time'll have to tell though, I suppose. I just know I felt pretty good when eating stuff from animal sources, even if the keto-flu ish symptoms hit rather hard with the nausea especially. But in other areas there was a remarkable difference. (Especially when it comes to the migraines. Unbelievable!).

I do agree with the label thing though: I need to free my mind a little.
Thanks!
Jo

 

[DCUKMod]

I guess it's not so much the labels, I use those for convenience and clarity... I just keep thinking, keto was for my bloodsugars.... Carnivore has a different goal, the sugars already sorted, with the possibility of fixing a permeable bowel, (and migraines, weight, and a bunch of other conditions,) but... If it's akin to gluten intolerance, I know a bit of it will shred a gut.... So how much can I get away with...? I know I'm not a coeliac, been tested for that four years ago, but everything else seems to be pointing the way of a leaky gut which is a kissing cousin to it, and it'll be a while before I can ask my GP for a test, not to mention not being all too sure she even "believes in" that particular condition as an option. So it's a matter of guesswork. Again. Anyway, massive salads seem to be out, but a small tuft of greens served with my eggs or steak? No idea. Time'll have to tell though, I suppose. I just know I felt pretty good when eating stuff from animal sources, even if the keto-flu ish symptoms hit rather hard with the nausea especially. But in other areas there was a remarkable difference. (Especially when it comes to the migraines. Unbelievable!).

I do agree with the label thing though: I need to free my mind a little.
Thanks!
Jo

Jo - @Goonergal is well documented around her results, vis-a-vis migraines when low carbing (or maybe when she went carni - she'll hopefully comment later).

My only other comment would be to ask if you were Low Carbing when you had your Coeliac Tests done? If so, it would be unlikely to show positive even if you actually were.

 

[Goonergal]

Jo - @Goonergal is well documented around her results, vis-a-vis migraines when low carbing (or maybe when she went carni - she'll hopefully comment later).

It was the (very) low carbing, not carnivore. My 3 year migraineless anniversary was this past Saturday.

 

[JoKalsbeek]

Jo - @Goonergal is well documented around her results, vis-a-vis migraines when low carbing (or maybe when she went carni - she'll hopefully comment later).

My only other comment would be to ask if you were Low Carbing when you had your Coeliac Tests done? If so, it would be unlikely to show positive even if you actually were.

I wasn't, at that point. I was being tested for liver issues which indirectly led to the diabetic diagnosis, so at that point I was being tested for liver cancer, NAFLD, coeliac, IBS, IBD and whatnot, while doing nothing else about the diabetes other than taking metformin for a few days, maybe a week by then. I'd never heard of low carb, so nope.... Carby as heck.

I knew low carbing improved migraines for a lot of people, and mine were sort of okay.... Still very frequent, but the usual hormonal ones had me taking 3 to 4 doses of triptans in a day, three to four days and nights straight, with the pain never going completely away. Now I had a minor migraine in the morning, tackled that, and it would stay away until the next morning. That's.... Never ever happened. Hormonal migraines have basically ruined my life from the moment I started having cycles at 9 or 10 years old or something. And now I could just do stuff and function. I don't know if it was a one-off, but I do know that when I went keto over the weekend, I got hit with migraines. That threw a spanner in the works when it came to my 5 days carni/2 days keto plan. So I need to continue this animal-food malarkey for a while to see whether it was just a fluke/coincidence, for at least a month or two, to know what's what. It'd be nice if this could be an answer!

 

[JoKalsbeek]

It was the (very) low carbing, not carnivore. My 3 year migraineless anniversary was this past Saturday.

Congratulations!!

 

[DCUKMod]

It was the (very) low carbing, not carnivore. My 3 year migraineless anniversary was this past Saturday.

Did you celebrate by having a great big steak or other meaty deliciousness?