Cinnamon and Bitter Melon for reducing fasting levels

[xyzzy]

alembic1989 and sip

I must say that as each day is passing I am getting more convinced by Cinnamon. Now 10 days in to taking 1700mg / day and my BG's have reduced from an average of around 5.8 this time last week (had got stuck there for about 3 weeks) to around 5.1 today. Last 3 day averages have been 5.0, 5.3 and today will be likely less than 5.1. I have lost a couple of pounds weight over the last week but my carbs / day has kept pretty much the same so at the moment it seems to be doing around a 0.5 reduction. The main difference has been that my +2 hour readings have really dropped quite dramatically from mostly high 5's to mostly low to mid 5's. My fasting levels are also down around 0.25 and I'm mid to high 4's far more often.

Saying that still too early to really tell! It's embarrassing as I'm off to see the specialist drugs nurse tomorrow along with all my printouts and they're showing me running at nearly a healthy non diabetic range! Of course they're only doing that because of the low carbs (mostly) but even so I wonder what her reaction is going to be...

Thanks for the info on karela that's really useful. I'm actually looking forward to trying out Bitter Melon and I've had some really helpful posts from Whitby and yourselves, thanks for all your inputs it really is appreciated.

A typical NHS reaction from the other site imo. Before criticising other cultures methods perhaps they should set their own house in order first. I do however take their point that maybe you should tread a bit carefully if you taking other powerful diabetic drugs.

Before I even contemplated taking Bitter Melon I did some research first. It appears if you live in the Philippines it actually a prescribed medicine. I read it's also highly recommended in Canada I think as well. Certainly the Indian karmin plus tablets I'd found the link to have a WHO certification. You can actual see it if you go to the manufacturers site.

I'll keep updating this thread as things progress.

 

[IanD]

I've tried both cinnamon & bitter melon. Cinnamon powder is a regular part of my diet. The bitter melon I tried as gourds & as tablets 4 years ago when I was developing muscle pains. I don't think it had a positive effect, but reduced carb certainly did.

My suspicion is that herbal remedies may have an effect in the absence of diet & drug control, but once good control is established any effect is unlikely to be measurable. But - prove me wrong!

 

[xyzzy]

Hey Ian

There has been a lot of real science research done on both Cinnamon and Bitter Melon over the years and if you look around you can find all the relevant research papers on-line. There is no doubt that Bitter Melon is quite a powerful hypoglycaemic compound.

It is not my intention to use them as a replacement for meds or spike control or even to allow me to eat more. My primary goal is to simply reduce my average daily BG's.

Both Cinnamon and Bitter Melon should work (if they do) using the same kind of way as Metformin by primarily blocking the blood taking up glucose. So if I can use those as an addition to Met rather than having to go onto to insulin stimulating drug that could damage my poor overworked pancreas even more then it seems a good alternative to try first.

I had established very good control prior to starting. My BG's had never been outside a top of 6.5 for the last month and at least 90% of my readings (7 times a day) are in the 4's and 5. My 30 day average is currently 5.8 and 7 day average is now 5.4.

I don't think we should be quite so dismissive of other cultures remedies especially if science has done investigations and not dismissed them out of hand. It's that kind of fixed mentality attitude that I object to with say the NHS dietary guidelines.

 

[sip]

What we tend to forget is that modern medicine has its roots (pun intended) in herbal medicines -- after all, aspirin comes from the bark of a tree! Some years ago I read about a plant (forgot its name) which grows in a certain part of Africa, and this is used in a coming-of-age ritual. The participants are required to chew on so many kilos of the roots, which induces a night long feverish hallucinatory condition. Apparently, this plant is so powerful and wonderful that one dosage as used in the coming-of-age ritual cleanses the body of drug and smoking addictions, overnight. Some French pharmaceutical has signed the rights to this plant, synthesised it and produced small dosage pills which are given over a period of two or three weeks in a residential clinic and treatment costs many thousands of pounds (£) so it's only for the very rich.

My mother has always been very keen on herbal remedies rather than modern medicines -- pills, tablets & capsules produced by big pharma. She has no end of books on alternative treatments and she studies and learns from them every day, even though she is in her 80s. At the age of 55 she contracted TB in her spine and she ended up with a double curvature of the spine. She spent a number of years in a wheelchair but eventually regained her mobility though she suffers with lots of pain and permanent sciatica in both legs. Fortunately, she does not suffer with arthritis or brittle bone which would only make things worse, and she puts this down to her lifelong diet and preventative remedies.

My sister and I were born with otitis media in both ears which has left us with diminished hearing and tinnitus (what a pain that is!) but I am not tone-deaf and can repeat any tune after listening to it just once or twice (I also do public singing without musical accompaniment -- my mother tells me I started singing at the age of three). The most effective treatment came from drops squeezed out of an African tropical weed which my mother grew specifically to treat us.

I have consulted practitioners of alternative medicine who can tell your medical history simply by holding/touching your wrist -- no magic or shamanism involved here. Their treatment plans span weeks if not months and are unlike the quick over-the-counter treatments because alternative medicine treats the root cause of the illness not the symptoms. With modern medicine, GPs try different drugs until they find the one with the least negative reaction, meanwhile the illness/disease continues to progress until the "right" treatment is found.

This is not to say that I do not use modern remedies: I take Metformin, Propranolol, Lansaprazole and Paracetamol/Cocodamol every day. But I certainly have more confidence in alternative medicines as they treat the cause not the symptoms.

In Ayurvedic medicine, each ingredient introduces "heat" (gharmi) or "coolness" (thanda or wayroo) into the body and practitioners know which ingredients to mix and which not to. Cinnamon I believe is "gharm" and so should be used in moderation. One small teaspoon mixed with a tablespoon of pure honey is well balanced, in equal amounts they could be less than beneficial. Similarly, cinnamon tea should only be prepared with a small teaspoon of cinnamon, balanced with honey as a sweetener. Honey is awesome in that apart from having curative effects on its own, it can reduce, neutralise or boost the effects of other ingredients to produce a balanced final treatment.

I know that there are a lot of crackpot websites out there, but this one is interesting (for me, it simply confirms what I already learnt from my mother and other practitioners):

http://www.benefits-of-honey.com/honey-and-cinnamon.html

Karela Curry: I cannot cook to save my life, but here is a recipe for Karela Gravy

Ingredients
Medium size Karelas - 6
Medium size Onions - 5
Garlic - 1 clove
Dhania Powder - 2 tea spoons
Jeera Powder - 1 tea spoon Salt - as per needed
Turmeric Powder - 1/4 tea spoon
Chilli Powder - 1 1/2 tea spoon
Tamarind - small ball size
Curd - 2 table spoons
Oil - 1/2 cup
2 green chillies deseeded, chopped 4-5 flakes garlic, peeled
3-4 peppercorns
1" stick cinnamon
2 cloves
1/2 tsp. mustard seeds
2 tbsp. ghee
1 tbsp. butter
salt to taste
Method
First cut the karelas in 2 halves and carefully remove the seeds from the center of the karelas with the help of a small tea spoon.
Now dip the karelas in little amount of water along with the curd, salt and turmeric powder, and boil for 10-15 min. Remove from heat and squeeze the karelas lightly to remove the bitterness.
Now deep fry the karelas until light brown and keep them aside.
Cut the onions finely. Grind onions, garlic, jeera powder, dhania powder, chilli pow- der, turmeric powder and salt (don't grind too much the onions).
Now take a large pan, pour oil and add the above masala. After 10 min. put the fried karelas and add little amount of water and cover it with a lid and keep on low heat.

I have uploaded some recipes in a PDF file which you can download from https://rapidshare.com/files/1755987203/Karela_Recipes.pdf

 

[CollieBoy]

Thanks for the recipes Sip, I feel a trip to Bolton Market coming on

 

[wellwell1212]

Interesting thread, I've tried the herbal stuff including Cinnamon to no apparent avail. Bitter Lemon is new one on me, might take a look at it.

 

[robertmiles]

I've seen the results of several people trying cinnamon over in the alt.support.diabetes newsgroup with these results:

About half wrote that it helped a little, but barely enough to measure. All but one of the rest wrote that they couldn't
measure any difference. One wrote that it increased her blood glucose instead.

One confusion factor in this: The spice known as cinnamon in the US is not the same one that is known as cinnamon in
Europe. It comes from a related species of plant, but not the same one. Few of the research papers make it clear which
of the at least seven known types they are about. One of the types is also known as cassia, and another is also known as
true cinnamon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon

Fewer people on that newsgroup have tried bitter melon, but those few seem to have better results from it.

Ayurvedic medications often include toxic metals. Are you sure you want to try any?

Lead Poisoning Associated with Ayurvedic Medications --- Five States, 2000--2003
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5326a3.htm

Ayurveda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda

 

[))Denise((]

I've been putting cinnamon on my breakfast for about a year. Last August I went to the US for a holiday and decided not to take my cinnamon with me and buy some over there. A small jar of cinnamon usually lasts me a couple of months. By November my American cinnamon was gone, so I went back to the British cinnamon I bought at Sainsburys. I noticed that my BS was rising, so I went on ebay and bought the brand I had bought in America. I have been using it for a couple of weeks now and there has been a fall in my BS.

The American cinnamon smells and tastes different, I think I have been wasting my time with the British stuff.

 

[wellwell1212]

The American cinnamon smells and tastes different, I think I have been wasting my time with the British stuff.

...................

Ah :idea: Think you have hit on some-thing here :idea:

 

[didie]

Denise, could I ask what brand of cinnamon you brought? Thank you

 

[xyzzy]

I've seen the results of several people trying cinnamon over in the alt.support.diabetes newsgroup with these results:

About half wrote that it helped a little, but barely enough to measure. All but one of the rest wrote that they couldn't
measure any difference. One wrote that it increased her blood glucose instead.

One confusion factor in this: The spice known as cinnamon in the US is not the same one that is known as cinnamon in
Europe. It comes from a related species of plant, but not the same one. Few of the research papers make it clear which
of the at least seven known types they are about. One of the types is also known as cassia, and another is also known as
true cinnamon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon

Fewer people on that newsgroup have tried bitter melon, but those few seem to have better results from it.

Ayurvedic medications often include toxic metals. Are you sure you want to try any?

Lead Poisoning Associated with Ayurvedic Medications --- Five States, 2000--2003
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5326a3.htm

Ayurveda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda

That's interesting stuff and I'll certainly consider the toxic metals bit!

The Cinnamon I have is made (or at least distributed by Swanson) and is in American packaging so it mentions their FDA and just has a US address and phone number as a contact point so hopefully it's what I'd get in America. Not looking or expecting any of this stuff to do a great deal, if it knocks 1.0mmol/l off my scores I will think it a success.

 

[))Denise((]

The American cinnamon brand I bought was McCormick http://www.mccormick.com/SpicesForHealt ... namon.aspx

 

[didie]

Thank you I've ordered some through ebay.

 

[sip]

Might be an idea to buy imported cinnamon sticks from an Asian grocery (small quantities of different ones) and use one of the food-processor attachments to grind them to a powder.

My mother makes a pudding with eggs & cinnamon sticks and I can eat it without worrying too much about elevated BS -- or maybe that BS in my post stands for bullsh*t :lol: and not Blood Sugar -- but I do love that pudding.

 

[elviscole]

the cinnamon i use i get from makro in a 390g jar, its ground cinnamon and i think its about £3.50 a jar and made by schwartz

 

[wellwell1212]

the cinnamon i use i get from makro in a 390g jar, its ground cinnamon and i think its about £3.50 a jar and made by schwartz

May I ask if you are getting good results form the British/Euro version of Cinnamon. Sorry to report that I did not. I am thinking about giving the USA version of cinnamon a go which is getting good vibes on this thread.

 

[xyzzy]

Another update.

Some Karela (Indian name for Bitter Melon) powder has turned up.

Started this morning with two small teaspoons of Karela (around 5 grams) and is the recommended dose in water but I need to find another way as it tastes appalling.

Does anyone know if I can actually add it to food when we cook or does the cooking process destroy its good effects?

On the Cinnamon

Well me BG's have gone silly this week and have been pretty unstable. I think its just me fighting off a bug and I've been doing some stressy stuff for work and having to drive a lot.

So starting from an average of around 5.8 after 7 days of Cinnamon the daily averages then went 5.0, 5.3, 5.1, 6.2, 5.4, 5.2, 6.1, 6.0

That first 6.2 was last Friday and I tried out a more carb intensive main meal and failed miserably. If I'd have done my normal would have been about a 5.3. Saturdays 5.4 contained my optimised Indian takeaway so well impressed! The last two have been where things have gone stupid this week. So my best guess is that at the moment the Cinnamon is making around a 0.5 difference / day.

 

[xyzzy]

Another update on this a week further on.

Well I managed just 3 days of taking two teaspoons of Bitter Melon powder in the form of Karela. Could not face it anymore :sick: I'm now waiting for a capsule making machine to come into stock so I can roll my own. In the meantime some of the Bitter Melon caps I originally ordered arrived so I'm munching my way through them at a rate of around 4g / day.

Based on my long term averages I reckon the Cinnamon has given me about a 0.4 mmol/l reduction. I quite pleased with this it sounds small but means I'm now averaging at around 5.4 across my pre and +2 hour readings

The Bitter Melon is behaving differently it seems to be giving me spike control above and beyond what Metformin gives me. Using my standard Indian takeaway test then prior to taking Bitter Melon I would normally rise around 2 to 2.5 mmol but the last two times with identical takeaways and Bitter Melon caps have only shown a rise of around 1.0 mmol. Had one last night and I only rose to 6.1 after two hours so well happy. I've also noticed I now have a far better tolerance to Burgen bread and to some extent rice and pasta also. It seems to have very little effect on fasting levels though.

 

[sip]

@xyzzy

Both the bitter melon and cinnamon regimes will need to be taken daily, just like the Metformin to maintain effectiveness.

I always take the cinnamon upon waking, before eating or drinking anything. I am not one for bitter melon, even though my Mum does curries and my son used to munch on raw bitter melon (just thinking about it makes me shudder).

As for the capsules, are they gelatine based? I used to be able to get non-gelatine ones from the pharmacy but they've been discontinued, probably didn't sell enough of them.

 

[xyzzy]

sip

Yes I take the cinnamon in the morning along with 2g of bitter melon then I take the other 2g of bitter melon in the evening with my main meal. It worked a treat tonight was able to eat a decent amount (for me) of lasagne for the first time.

Have pm'ed you separately with some cap supplier details and other stuff.