Covid and Work, Covid Advice and General Chat

Max68 · Jul 25, 2020

"to be treated fairly and with consideration." This 100%, you are absolutely correct, I couldn't have phrased it better and that's the problem, we aren't really being treated in that way and it's not our fault that there is a worldwide pandemic in full swing! I've also seen the comments on here and elsewhere to just "get on with it" etc which I find most unfair and IMO such comments should be kept to themselves. Everyone is different and everyone will be different on how they deal with things. If some want to be blaze then fine, it's up to them, but being blaze by Governments and individuals is why there is a global pandemic in the first place!

The problem is (and it's not just diabetes but plenty of other conditions as well) only a couple of months ago the Government were shielding some and seriously advising others to work from home and strenuously social distance. Now it's July/August but the advice is er go back to work regardless. The virus hasn't changed, peoples medical conditions haven't changed, all that's changed is the ensuing panic about the economy to the extent that everything that now comes out of Boris's mouth reminds me of the Generals at Gallipoli and other similar fronts just forcing their troops over the top of the trenches into the incoming gunfire hoping that you will be the one to dodge the bullet! This isn't a war though, certainly not one we enlisted too!!

What confuses me is the amount of businesses that are continuing to work at home "for the safety of their staff". The bold bit isn't the bit that confuses me, that's sensible. The bit that confuses me is to why friends of mine in certain businesses are working from home until further notice, certain Government/Public Sector departments are working at home until further notice, GP's are only seeing patients remotely, via Zoom or phone unless "absolutely necessary" to be face to face, and even my Union Rep has said most of them still are working from home. Yet thousands upon thousands of people are being told "go back to work". Why is it deemed safe for teachers/support staff for instance to go back onto the classroom but it isn't safe for GP's to see their patients or Government employees to go back to the office?!

JRT · Jul 25, 2020

Max68 said:
"to be treated fairly and with consideration." This 100%, you are absolutely correct, I couldn't have phrased it better and that's the problem, we aren't really being treated in that way and it's not our fault that there is a worldwide pandemic in full swing! I've also seen the comments on here and elsewhere to just "get on with it" etc which I find most unfair and IMO such comments should be kept to themselves. Everyone is different and everyone will be different on how they deal with things. If some want to be blaze then fine, it's up to them, but being blaze by Governments and individuals is why there is a global pandemic in the first place!

The problem is (and it's not just diabetes but plenty of other conditions as well) only a couple of months ago the Government were shielding some and seriously advising others to work from home and strenuously social distance. Now it's July/August but the advice is er go back to work regardless. The virus hasn't changed, peoples medical conditions haven't changed, all that's changed is the ensuing panic about the economy to the extent that everything that now comes out of Boris's mouth reminds me of the Generals at Gallipoli and other similar fronts just forcing their troops over the top of the trenches into the incoming gunfire hoping that you will be the one to dodge the bullet! This isn't a war though, certainly not one we enlisted too!!

What confuses me is the amount of businesses that are continuing to work at home "for the safety of their staff". The bold bit isn't the bit that confuses me, that's sensible. The bit that confuses me is to why friends of mine in certain businesses are working from home until further notice, certain Government/Public Sector departments are working at home until further notice, GP's are only seeing patients remotely, via Zoom or phone unless "absolutely necessary" to be face to face, and even my Union Rep has said most of them still are working from home. Yet thousands upon thousands of people are being told "go back to work". Why is it deemed safe for teachers/support staff for instance to go back onto the classroom but it isn't safe for GP's to see their patients or Government employees to go back to the office?!

Snap

. I think that sums it up perfectly. Personally I think government/public sector workers on the whole work under better terms and conditions and are more likely to know their rights .As employers the government/councils usually are rigorous with regard to H&S and are cautious about being sued. Often when frontline workers suffer it's when they are contracted out.
I may be cynical but Unions,Unison in particular are full of rhetoric but had their claws removed years ago.
For me its outrageous that the risk you are exposed to is only sanctioned in certain occupations.
Its interesting on the news today that obesity is being highlighted as risk factor. I'm all for any government initiatives in this area. It does seem however that diabetes continues to be ignored!
All any of us can do is assess our own risk I do genuinely fear for those who have no choice but to be exposed to risk based on factors beyond their control.

Max68 · Jul 25, 2020

I think anyone who goes back who aren't 100% happy with the circumstances and are not getting any help/reassurance from their employer should make it known in writing so as I said once before it can categorically be shown that it's the employer that's forcing you back rather than you being happy to go back. I would also just do the very basics of your job and not go above and beyond. If an employer queries this then just say that's all they have done as a risk assessment - the very basics, so whilst an employer doesn't go above and beyond why should you?

My lot, whilst not allowing me to continue working from home - have been ok with trying to reassure me that they are doing as much as they can to keeping all safe. However at the same time I'm not going to be volunteering to take them to football tournaments and such as per pre Covid and will be turning up on time rather than early and leaving on time rather than staying on to help with other bits etc. It will be as per contract 100%.

Themis789 · Jul 25, 2020

JRT said:
Good advice from Max68. I wholeheartedly emphasize! I experienced tremendous difficulties last week. My work situation is very high risk. I self isolated before the shielding letters came out but when the government actually stated those in receipt of flu jab would have to self isolate. It was there in black and white and later removed. Despite actively having Covid in building work have said it's safe,but have refused or blanked requests for individual risk assessments,alternative roles etc. They havent paid me since March. They wouldnt furlough me without a shielding letter. Since May I've bounced between Unison and Work and GP. GP grudgingly supportive although comments such as "this could go on for years and you cant be signed off sick forever " and yes I've got lots of patients in same position one carer just went back to work havent been particularly helpful. That said she has now signed me off until the end of September with "stress caused by risk of returning to work caused by risk of being exposed to covid due to diabetes "!. From a union perspective it's a game,I have to keep submitting the same requests to see if they continue not to comply. Rightly or wrongly it is a process based on pre covid. I did email CAB after spending an hour on hold on helpline.They emailed me back useful links to their website. ACAS may also be healthy. It's true that we are in No Mans Land as not shielded. I've even seen comments on here that we need to just get on with it and cant hide away. Of course the problem with this issue is individual circumstances, age, weight, diabetes control,where you work,how you get there ,who you work with,work environment.
Personally it drove me to point where doubted own judgement. For me the pivotal moment was discovering government/local council workers were told to work from home in March using original government guidelines. They were paid and supported. I used to work for council but a change of employer to the private sector has meant that despite having the same medical condition I have had to battle relentlessly to little good. I have wondered if I'm making an unnecessary fuss and the risk isnt there etc. Fortunately I can afford not to work for a while. After stating he sympathised with my "lived experience"
my union rep asked what I wanted. My reply was simple, to be treated fairly and with consideration.
Ironically the only way my workplace may become Covid Safe is the governments opening up care homes to visitors. In Scotland they have stated staff and residents must be covid free for a month. England is less rigorous but it will force more unscrupulous home owners to be more transparent in how they are managing the virus,and if they cant why not?

I can empathise with your situation. I agree, there’s many factors depending on each individuals circumstances. Age, Gender ethnicity, type, Location & other health conditions etc... when people remark that there are low rates of infection and death rates for those of working age even with diabetes, they are not fully understanding each person circumstances and the factors surrounding them.

1 in 4 who have died in hospital in England following a diagnosis of covid 19 also had diabetes, this was 1 In 3 people in bame group. further stats can be found on public health England’s and diabetes U.K. website.

I forgot to mention a few days before I was meant to return to work there was an outbreak in my work place, they failed to tell me and are keeping it very quite &top secret, as a matter of fact people have been Felt intimidated, as they’ve been told not to talk about it! If I can help you, or get some sound advice which will help your situation, I’ll let you know x

JRT · Jul 25, 2020

Themis789 said:
I can empathise with your situation. I agree, there’s many factors depending on each individuals circumstances. Age, Gender ethnicity, type, Location & other health conditions etc... when people remark that there are low rates of infection and death rates for those of working age even with diabetes, they are not fully understanding each person circumstances and the factors surrounding them.

1 in 4 who have died in hospital in England following a diagnosis of covid 19 also had diabetes, this was 1 In 3 people in bame group. further stats can be found on public health England’s and diabetes U.K. website.

I forgot to mention a few days before I was meant to return to work there was an outbreak in my work place, they failed to tell me and are keeping it very quite &top secret, as a matter of fact people have been Felt intimidated, as they’ve been told not to talk about it! If I can help you, or get some sound advice which will help your situation, I’ll let you know x

Thankyou

. I must admit the thing that really struck me was that your workplace had a covid outbreak that you were not told about and they are trying to keep quiet.
The assumption that employers act in the best interests of employees rather than profit. It seems that the employee has to go to considerable lengths to prove it's not. Your knowledge of the practices of your employer, and in my case I've told the Union they are being very evasive about Covid in building, doesnt seem to count for much.! No doubt if I'd been forced into work and caught the virus lessons would have been learned

.
For me I think one of the things that angers me most is feel I'm being gas lighted.! I dont think its personal it just the system and an indication of how workers rights and protection has been eroded. This was bad enough pre pandemic but is worse when the risks are so high.
I wouldn't be surprised if Government give further advice to shielded before August. Unfortunately it puts terrible pressure on people when there is such uncertainty.
Good luck,hope you get answers.

Mr_Pot · Jul 25, 2020

Spare a thought for those who are employed by small companies or are self-employed. I am lucky that it doesn't apply to me but it does to very many people. A small company will quickly go out of business if it is paying people who are not working. Not for them the power of unions or the luxury of being paid by the taxpayer. Large companies, particularly public services, employ many people doing a similar job so if a few are missing the others can take up the slack, at least for a while. If a company is only 5 people say, their roles may all be different and missing one person could be critical to the business, and they would have to be replaced.
So remember, when demanding a risk assessment or extensive PPE or hoping to wait until there is a vaccine before returning to work, that not everyone has that choice.

JRT · Jul 25, 2020

Mr_Pot said:
Spare a thought for those who are employed by small companies or are self-employed. I am lucky that it doesn't apply to me but it does to very many people. A small company will quickly go out of business if it is paying people who are not working. Not for them the power of unions or the luxury of being paid by the taxpayer. Large companies, particularly public services, employ many people doing a similar job so if a few are missing the others can take up the slack, at least for a while. If a company is only 5 people say, their roles may all be different and missing one person could be critical to the business, and they would have to be replaced.
So remember, when demanding a risk assessment or extensive PPE or hoping to wait until there is a vaccine before returning to work, that not everyone has that choice.

I do have tremendous sympathy for small businesses and the self employed,it must be devastating to see everything you have worked for slip away and be powerless to stop it. Yes there is the furlough scheme and loans but they may just be delaying the inevitable and many people have slipped between the cracks by pure bad luck. Government workers etc are working from home.
What I do have a problem with is negligence by employers where their love of money comes before people,in this case with lethal consequences. I can only explain things from my perspective.
I work for a smallish private care company. They now own 6 care homes as they've just bought another. The particular home I work for lost a third of its residents,20 people,to Covid. Something went very wrong there. Risk assessments are a fact of life ,especially when protecting vulnerable residents and staff from injury. Likewise PPE. They are perfectly capable of allocating vulnerable staff to other areas,buildings even,but choose not too. We are numbers. If staff leave it's the norm to withhold final pay. Residents are adequately cared for unless it requires financial outlay. Sheets and towels worn threadbare replaced when CQC visit. Old portable heaters pose a real risk to residents. If I worked in a small independent nursing home I would expect PPE, I would expect them to try and minimize the risk. Alternative roles would be less likely,if I felt they had tried their hardest I would put it down to unfortunate circumstances and leave. Everyone had tried their hardest but just not viable.
My employer has not paid me since March. The lavish lifestyle of the owner has to be seen to be believed . I dont want their money, I dont want their job. I want them to be accountable.

Max68 · Jul 26, 2020

Mr_Pot said:
Spare a thought for those who are employed by small companies or are self-employed. I am lucky that it doesn't apply to me but it does to very many people. A small company will quickly go out of business if it is paying people who are not working. Not for them the power of unions or the luxury of being paid by the taxpayer. Large companies, particularly public services, employ many people doing a similar job so if a few are missing the others can take up the slack, at least for a while. If a company is only 5 people say, their roles may all be different and missing one person could be critical to the business, and they would have to be replaced.
So remember, when demanding a risk assessment or extensive PPE or hoping to wait until there is a vaccine before returning to work, that not everyone has that choice.

You are absolutely right It is a difficult situation indeed but unfortunately it will still be a difficult situation until Covid is somehow eradicated, which unfortunately could be a long long time. Large, regular or small businesses and the self employed are going to be affected even if those businesses are at full capacity with employees because consumers confidence is always going to be low and people are going to be nervous whilst the virus is still out there,. You can tell everyone they can go on holiday if you like but demand will be far lower than normal. People will also delay that new bathroom or cancel the decorator because they won't want people in the house and unless you are desperate for a drink or a meal out pubs and restaurants won't be at pre covid levels until it's all over. That's the problem, the Government can try and convince people that there is a new normal and go and spend etc to keep businesses going but sadly that won't be the case with Covid around.

Tannith · Jul 26, 2020

Does anyone know whether all or most MOD employees are working from home. Or DSS employees?

Andydragon · Jul 26, 2020

Tannith said:
Does anyone know whether all or most MOD employees are working from home. Or DSS employees?

It seems Boris is adamant in getting people back into work. If you have children seems you have an exemption but otherwise your boss tells you to come in then you have to. Well you don’t, you just won’t get paid

given the push to bring people back in, one can assume the MOD and DSS would be told to come back in to show solidarity with the rest of us... surely?

Brunneria · Jul 26, 2020

Andydragon said:
It seems Boris is adamant in getting people back into work. If you have children seems you have an exemption but otherwise your boss tells you to come in then you have to. Well you don’t, you just won’t get paid

given the push to bring people back in, one can assume the MOD and DSS would be told to come back in to show solidarity with the rest of us... surely?

The message has, consistently, from the beginning, been for people who CAN work from home, to do so.
Office workers who do not deal with the public face to face (of which there are many in the MOD and DSS), should therefore be working at home where possible - exactly the same as everyone else.

Andydragon · Jul 26, 2020

Brunneria said:
The message has, consistently, from the beginning, been for people who CAN work from home, to do so.
Office workers who do not deal with the public face to face (of which there are many in the MOD and DSS), should therefore be working at home where possible - exactly the same as everyone else.

I think you missed my point, but that’s because I wasn’t totally clear, sorry! That Was the message, this now is changing that people who can work from the office should do. Following the realisation that people like working from home and that that means less foot traffic in the high streets, there is a change to get people back in the office

I think they are not reading public opinion very well! Personally, even though I am being strongly requested back to work, I have zero intention of buying from the high street. I doubt I am alone

Max68 · Jul 26, 2020

The problem is the country is so desperate to keep their jobs and boost the economy, which is totally understandable of course, no-one really asks the question what they are going to do if the breadwinner in the family ends up in hospital or worse with Covid?! It really is a flip of the coin.

JRT · Jul 26, 2020

Max68 said:
The problem is the country is so desperate to keep their jobs and boost the economy, which is totally understandable of course, no-one really asks the question what they are going to do if the breadwinner in the family ends up in hospital or worse with Covid?! It really is a flip of the coin.

It does seem a no win situation for the economy,not just in the UK. I think in UK there has been massive pressure to go out and spend etc with the barely heard add on of doing it in a way that complies with rules. Relying a 100% on British common sense probably a bit optimistic.
It does seem to be backfiring now with restrictions on travel. Does seem to be a case of one step forward one back and endless arguments about mask wearing etc.
Cut away all the rhetoric and money off meals etc and the risk is still there and can only be reduced by social distancing and respect for others.
It will be interesting to see if the announcement that obesity (which affects a larger proportion of society of all ages) has any impact on how people view the virus and if they start more actively following guidelines.!
I think anyone who can work from home will probably continue to do so or maybe ways be found of working in smaller groups more locally.
Despite the affect on my local economy I'm kind of hoping for inclement weather. Now cheaper holidays to Spain problematical I really dont want a repeat of what happened on Bournemouth beaches last month. Apparently it hasn't lead to a local spike, which doesnt completely surprise me as the majority of people who live here only go to beach very early or very late or go to quieter areas. I do wonder if those who did get the virus took it back with them,a lot were from the Midlands. Who knows? That's the problem really. Theres so much we dont know! Before anyone questions it I love the Midlands, I was from there originally!

Tannith · Jul 26, 2020

Max68 said:
The problem is the country is so desperate to keep their jobs and boost the economy, which is totally understandable of course, no-one really asks the question what they are going to do if the breadwinner in the family ends up in hospital or worse with Covid?! It really is a flip of the coin.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/economy...middle-class-workers-are-working-home-full-ti
Around a quarter of British workers are still unable to work from home at all

Mr_Pot · Jul 26, 2020

Tannith said:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/economy...middle-class-workers-are-working-home-full-ti
Around a quarter of British workers are still unable to work from home at all

It seems pretty self evident that people who do physical work can't do it from home, I don't think it is a conspiracy. You asked about the MoD earlier, it was a long time ago but I worked on weapons testing on a firing range, I couldn't have done that from home.

Goonergal · Jul 27, 2020

Mr_Pot said:
It seems pretty self evident that people who do physical work can't do it from home, I don't think it is a conspiracy. You asked about the MoD earlier, it was a long time ago but I worked on weapons testing on a firing range, I couldn't have done that from home.

And let’s be clear. Not all of those newly working from home want to be. There are many different circumstances, drivers, fears and so on. What one person desires - I’d be in the office today given half a chance - is the next person’s nightmare.

The worst part of all of this is the polarisation and judgement (not digging at you @Mr_Pot , just making a general observation) going on.

lindisfel · Jul 27, 2020

My youngest is finding working from home is ideal, she can get far more done now than hot desking at work. Such pressure schemes cannot be carried out.
The office have a few working and all the windows are open and air con off. It will be difficult in winter for some but she doesnt feel the cold. Meanwhile she has been able to help grandson with his school work.

Eldest, works from home on zoom teaching uni medics, when not in the practice, which also has much telephone triage atm.

I worked on equipment all my life I honestly cant see why there should be discrimination against any honest work wherever its carried out.
D.

Themis789 · Jul 27, 2020

Themis789 said:
I can empathise with your situation. I agree, there’s many factors depending on each individuals circumstances. Age, Gender ethnicity, type, Location & other health conditions etc... when people remark that there are low rates of infection and death rates for those of working age even with diabetes, they are not fully understanding each person circumstances and the factors surrounding them.

1 in 4 who have died in hospital in England following a diagnosis of covid 19 also had diabetes, this was 1 In 3 people in bame group. further stats can be found on public health England’s and diabetes U.K. website.

I forgot to mention a few days before I was meant to return to work there was an outbreak in my work place, they failed to tell me and are keeping it very quite &top secret, as a matter of fact people have been Felt intimidated, as they’ve been told not to talk about it! If I can help you, or get some sound advice which will help your situation, I’ll let you know x

I called the equalities and employment advice line this morning, hooray I got through. Both my diabetes and other medical condition falls under One of the protected characteristics - disability under equalities act 2010, I’ve been emailed over a pack, so I’ll be spending the next few days reading it thoroughly and writing my appeal. If I lose the appeal then it will go further following the reconciliation process, and if there’s no positive outcome from that it will go to tribunal. I’m hopeful they will resolve it at the appeal stage. Eeas 08008 800 0082 they also are on Twitter and fb I hope it helps anyone that’s going through similar issues.

JRT · Jul 27, 2020

Themis789 said:
I called the equalities and employment advice line this morning, hooray I got through. Both my diabetes and other medical condition falls under One of the protected characteristics - disability under equalities act 2010, I’ve been emailed over a pack, so I’ll be spending the next few days reading it thoroughly and writing my appeal. If I lose the appeal then it will go further following the reconciliation process, and if there’s no positive outcome from that it will go to tribunal. I’m hopeful they will resolve it at the appeal stage. Eeas 08008 800 0082 they also are on Twitter and fb I hope it helps anyone that’s going through similar issues.

Brilliant news and thankyou for sharing. I really hope it goes well

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