Covid and Work, Covid Advice and General Chat

HSSS said:

contain it in any way shape or form?

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Come on think about what your saying.

• IF a school gets covid in a small village you can lock down the village.
• IF a school gets covid in a large city you can lock down that borough.
• IF that's not enough you can lock down the whole city.
• IF that's not enough you can lock down the county.

Instead of locking down the whole country.
The aim is to contain.

Its called track and trace not protect and heal.

HSSS said:

despite protection being the headline,

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Hi @HSSS I'm not cherry picking a point to hang an argument on.

I completely agree this is fool hardy and ineffectual at best. And down right criminal at worst.

Trump claims to be a war time president and Boris seems to be cut from the same cloth. Just like a surgeon cutting of an arm to save a patient, decision have to be made. The decision that has been made is we need to restart the economy, can't do that if the parents are at home looking after there kids. Solution: Send the kids to school. So the parent can go to work.

Now what happens the kids are exposed and the parents are exposed double trouble.

I don't have the answer to this.
I think most of us heard right at the begin of the out break the second and third wave of the Spanish flue killed more people than the fist wave. Because governments opened up the economy to soon. The decision has been made some where that lives will be lost but that's an acceptable loss, open up the schools.

The decision, as always is weighed up in terms human lives against future profit.

Max68 said:

You are absolutely right. Even if I survive on air for a year as you say there may be no jobs to go back to or ones that are worse. In some ways I am lucky. It's an Autistic school with at most around 75 kids and 45/50 staff. So it's not a Comprehensive with 1500. Obviously the downside is that makes the school smaller but class sizes are 6 pupils at most but each lesson you have a change of pupils, it's not the same class all day. So swings and roundabouts. It's a lottery whatever job you do. If I were driving a van who was in it yesterday, and was it cleaned correctly?! Nothing is risk free sadly bar working from home which is not zero but very low and there just aren't those jobs about, certainly not at my educational level!

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It certainly is an unpredictable world. My future son in law gave up a secure well paid job to go self employed just before virus kicked off. It was a skilled job which he did an apprenticeship for,they fittings for shops,boats all sorts. I imagine now even if had been furloughed would have been laid off. He was going into business with a friend fitting kitchens etc but not sure how recession affect that.
Meanwhile hes making very good money working at a Covid test site. At first it sounded risky but perfectly safe,certainly safer than care or education . He also had an opportunity to be a milkman but it was 6 nights a week,did pay£26grand a year though.
I'm always bemused by concept of working from home as never had an office job,well apart from one for a year! Yes,that could have been done from home.
I am looking,but feel the Autumn/Winter not going to be a good time. I cant help but be wistful and thing that not that long ago I could have retired at 60. Instead I have nearly a decade to wait!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rnment-ad-parents-boris-johnson-a9672361.html
Government launches national advertising campaign amid fears parents afraid to send children back to classrooms

However, the ONS also said almost nine in 10 adults thought it either very or fairly likely that those children would return when the new term begins in September.

The adverts have been criticised by opposition parties, who said the country needed an effective track and trace system alongside practical and financial support for school leaders, not a “PR campaign”.

Tannith said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rnment-ad-parents-boris-johnson-a9672361.html
Government launches national advertising campaign amid fears parents afraid to send children back to classrooms

However, the ONS also said almost nine in 10 adults thought it either very or fairly likely that those children would return when the new term begins in September.

The adverts have been criticised by opposition parties, who said the country needed an effective track and trace system alongside practical and financial support for school leaders, not a “PR campaign”.

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They also say that 6 in ten adults are concerned about children returning to school,dont know that's those with childeren or those such as grandparents who provide care etc. The government asking parents to start planning school run and avoid public transport etc. Hmm. Dont know when survey was done but things change so rapidly.! Wonder what the world beating slogan will be?

JRT said:

They also say that 6 in ten adults are concerned about children returning to school,dont know that's those with childeren or those such as grandparents who provide care etc. The government asking parents to start planning school run and avoid public transport etc. Hmm. Dont know when survey was done but things change so rapidly.! Wonder what the world beating slogan will be?

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I saw what I thought was the first of those ads on Sky news yesterday Sat 15th Aug. I think it's shameful to try to con the public into believing it's safe to send their kids to school. The money would be better spent trying to MAKE it safe. Daily temperature checks for kids & staff and at least weekly testing for all, followed by quarantine action as necessary.

Max68 said:

Usual informative video from Dr John. He talks about the stats from the Centre of Disease Control re increased rate of infection in children in the US and about the clusters appearing in US schools and his concerns for schools in Europe. Starts about the 14.52 mark.

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He is excellent. From a brief scan of news the concern about the safety of school environment is starting to be apparent. It does seem the only country that have achieved it successfully are Denmark and they seem to have done what many experts say should be done.!
I heard from my Union today and I need to play the game a little while longer

Max68 said:

Cue irony of masks not being made mandatory at schools. If they were I would probably have a get out clause without sanction for leaving! Played some golf yesterday (badly!). We had to gather around a Course Marshall to hear the Covid rules and instructions, (socially distanced gather round of course!) He was wearing a mask. I couldn't hear a thing which proves that with my hearing loss I rely on lip reading far more than I thought. Therefore if masks were made mandatory for teachers and pupils I wouldn't have a clue what's going on so therefore I assume I would be an added risk to health and safety on top of a risk to er health and safety!! If you get my meaning?!?!!

The things play havoc with my hearing aid as well. Too much in the way of entanglement going on behind my ears what with mask elastic and hearing aid tube, so will need to get myself some of those tie behind the head ones. If anyone uses those a link would be gratefully received!

Was interesting that at the Club some staff just had masks, others visors, and some wore a combination of the two. The visors certainly look more comfortable albeit a bit more drastic but not sure if they would offer any protection as the virus can still get in underneath or around the sides. Anyway all the staff were young healthy looking people and still taking precautions AND this was all outside!

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Most days my dog walking takes me on footpaths across the local golf course but I have never seen anyone wearing a mask. As they are in the open air and always stand apart anyway, I think they are making a very reasonable assessment of the risk.

Max68 said:

The only ones that were wearing them were the staff but a majority of those were working in the outdoor restaurant area. Mind you it was the Club Championship day in the morning so more people than usual so it may just have been for the day because of the increase in turn out.

Interestingly we had a buggy each even though buggies had Perspex screens between seats. No holding the flag and no rakes in bunkers. All in all golf courses are very safe.

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I think this is a very good example of two issues. Firstly how some work places are very covid safe. I also think the reminder of the risk of communal surfaces is also something that also always chills me when think of how contagious this virus is.
I've seen a few articles on how the use of masks affects those who have a hearing loss, not sure what the answer is though.
It certainly seems that worldwide even countries that have controlled the virus incredibly well are experiencing problems again as people travel return to work etc.
I suppose to give any governments the benefit of the doubt even if they were doing their best and what they should be doing this virus is tenacious. Should they have encouraged holidays abroad etc? It doesnt seem to have worked particularly well for all concerned. Lockdown isnt a permanent solution.
To play devils advocate if governments looked at schools and put in place all that was needed I.e. smaller groups across different buildings etc etc would it be a solution? Is it even possible? Are there enough teachers.? It feels as though everything about how our society works and connects allows the virus to thrive whether it be overcrowded schools,understaffed and under funded social and health care, the erosion of workers rights ,poor housing. The list is endless.
When my daughters were young I couldnt afford childcare and my mortgage so my parents stepped in and had them after school and during the holidays. Many times in the past few months I wonder what I would have done. My parents were both vulnerable due to age and underlying health conditions and I wouldnt have wanted to put them at any risk.
There was a concept regarding group work when two groups join together. Storming,where group members have there own beliefs about how things should be done, forming when there is negotiations and compromise and norming when the group has become a new group. Its certainly true. A decade ago the day centre I worked for joined another one. Same town,same types of service users,same job descriptions. Both groups had very different ways of doing the same thing. It took quite a few years to get to a point we were a unified workforce!
I think the current situation is very similar. Arguably its us versus the virus. We have to change how we live,work,socialise, travel. We are certainly storming,whether it be those who comply with rules and restrictions to those who wont either because they dont think they are affected or even those who think it's all over hyped or a hoax. A lot of time is spent with groups blaming other groups etc. Governments stumble along with there own agenda.
Uncertainty is the biggest problem with forming. No one knows how long this is going to last. A vaccine may be found and their is potential life may return to how it was. Of course it may not and this is how life will be. I think certainly for the rest of the year our government will continue to "whack a mole". Rather than put drastic new working practices in place in schools I wouldn't be surprised if it's just carry on as normal then react if a crisis happens. The best we can hope for is some sort of statement supporting high risk pupils and staff.
Unless an effective vaccine can be found there has to be a global recognition that things have to change beyond recognition from healthcare to food production to where and how we work. Until then we are still at the very beginning of what has the potential to be a massive social change.

Tannith said:

Well a lot of the teachers and education support do - see the return to work thread. They are worried that the Govt is forcing them back to work with no protection whatever. They are not even allowed to wear PPE if they bring it themselves. As to the children, the Tinies can't social distance or observe hygiene measures and many of the the teens won't.Unlike key workers treating the sick, caring for the old and providing access to food etc, teachers, though desirable, are not essential workers, Home education is not a life threatening emergency

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I must say this comment is pretty simplistic. How do you think the keyworkers are in a position to actually go to work to 'care for the old and treat the sick' if not for the Teachers? Who do you think will be sitting at home with those children whilst they are busy 'home educating' or are you suggesting they remain home alone attached to a computer?. No Teachers equals no schools equals no parents going into the workplace, ie the NHS/emergency services/Drs/Dentists/Office workers and just about everybody else. Also your comment about remortgaging may be an option for a few but the majority of ordinary workers are mortgaged to the hilt already and can hardly take a years break from work whilst getting themselves further into debt, which a remortgage IS.

KK123 said:

I must say this comment is pretty simplistic. How do you think the keyworkers are in a position to actually go to work to 'care for the old and treat the sick' if not for the Teachers? Who do you think will be sitting at home with those children whilst they are busy 'home educating' or are you suggesting they remain home alone attached to a computer?. No Teachers equals no schools equals no parents going into the workplace, ie the NHS/emergency services/Drs/Dentists/Office workers and just about everybody else. Also your comment about remortgaging may be an option for a few but the majority of ordinary workers are mortgaged to the hilt already and can hardly take a years break from work whilst getting themselves further into debt, which a remortgage IS.

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Indeed. So much revolves around schools being open from breakfast clubs to after school clubs with many part time jobs working around these hours. There is also the vital social work role that schools play offering respite from difficult home environments to being aware of safeguarding issues. I know schools remained open during lockdown for vulnerable childeren and those of key workers,how successful this was I'm not sure.
In light of current economic outlook where there are rumours of rise in mortgage rates remortgaging may not be a good idea but I suppose depending on your situation people may feel it buys them time/safety.

to KK123. As I understand it the children of key workers have been at school all along. There are few enough of them that they can be taught in small safe socially distanced groups. I am concerned for the poor teachers being "sent to the slaughter" in large comprehensives where they move every 40 minutes to another different group of 30 teenagers. I think what you say about kids having to be supervised at home is the main reason why Boris wants them back at school ie the parents can't go back to work while they are supervising kids. I have read that up to 68% of people work from home and though this seems to me a high number, many articles say 38%. They aren't all parents, but nevertheless WFH enables a large proportion of parents to take responsibility for their own children. It is not just the teachers who will suffer if kids go back to school. They will infect their peers and then their parents and then their grandparents. We could easily be in a second wave in a couple of months if schools reopen.
As to remortgaging, obviously it would only be an option for a few people, but at least more of the older teachers who tend to be more vulnerable will be closer to paying off their mortgages. If it was a way out of teaching for only one older,vulnerable teacher it would be worth trying.

Max68 said:

The Governments will continue to be reactive and lay blame elsewhere as most of them have done since the pandemic started. The only one I have any respect for is Ardern in New Zealand who seems to come across as a proactive empathic leader. Can't comment much on the Australian PM as haven't seen much on them but again they seem to be proactive there as well although our friends living over there would be able to comment.

Society today is a breeding ground for infection. Public touch screens and key pads everywhere and windows at schools, offices and hotels that don't open. Even our efforts to produce less wastage is a hinderance in some ways because the likes of paper towels are out in a public toilets these days with push button hand dryers the preferred option. Even the majority of taps in shared bathrooms need turning on and off manually and hand sanitizers aren't automatic but push button and I've mentioned before how all public toilet doors seem to be push open on the way in rather than on the way out. Even before the pandemic I was quite horrified to see these new order screens in fast food restaurants and I would always use the counter to order.

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I must admit your description of public or communal toilets did make me smile as reminded me of last shift I did at work. We did have paper towels but negotiating everything else from taps to doors would have been very entertaining to anyone watching. They do use a computer system which staff access through a smart phone to do records. It's a brilliant system but the phones are shared....!
Before the virus some pubs had an App where you ordered and paid at your table. I imagine these more commonplace now.
But yes every day life is an assault course of communal surfaces.!