Covid and Work, Covid Advice and General Chat

[Max68]

My money is on the latter.

Absolutely agree although they are absolutely terrified that losing a few months in full education is going to mean a less intelligent work force in the future as per their recent quote -

"Lower academic achievement also translates into long-term economic costs due to having a less well-qualified workforce."

My Union rang earlier and told me to hold fire on any rash decisions. They said the Unions are speaking with the Government about the clinically vulnerable, especially in schools, and she will know more middle of next week. She also said that many who have left their jobs voluntarily because they don't feel safe at work are being sanctioned re Universal Credit as it's difficult to claim if you resign. She also said quite correctly that even if you claim UC as a jobseeker then you have to be actively looking for work, and considering our friends at the DWP pretty much insist that you take any job going I could be jumping from the fire place into the fire, which is a fair point.

She once again advised that I get a risk assessment however I explained that to be fair the school have been really good. With the timetable they have been very generous to me and are trying to accommodate me in the "safest roles". It's not the schools fault that in a classroom "no" school will have a safe role, especially when ALL our pupils come in via taxi, another petri dish of germs! So I've no issue at all with my employers as I just happen to be in a vocation that isn't a good one for any type of social distancing!

The cynic in me wouldn't be surprised if the Government is looking forward to their 40% take re Inheritance Tax as deaths rise!!

 

[JohnEGreen]

Well Judith has to take her computer back to the office this evening and she is being forced back into the office as least till a replacement computer becomes available which could take weeks this despite during a virtual online briefing the CEO of the hospital reiterating that the hospital had no policy of ending home working at present.

 

[lucylocket61]

Interesting that, since yesterday, we no longer have numbers for new cases in the UK. I wonder when they will return?

 

[bulkbiker]

Interesting that, since yesterday, we no longer have numbers for new cases in the UK. I wonder when they will return?

New "positive test results" I guess you mean.

 

[HSSS]

It mean when and if an out break occurs you can trace the people from an office setting where it is the same people in the same office every day compared to a pub that is full of strangers who will be harder to trace,

The concern is containment, not safety.

So in a secondary school where the mix of pupils and teachers changes hourly 5 or 6 times a day and different each day of a two week rota in our cases that’s not comparable to an office, much more like a pub, train, shop etc where they wear masks.

 

[Max68]

So in a secondary school where the mix of pupils and teachers changes hourly 5 or 6 times a day and different each day of a two week rota in our cases that’s not comparable to an office, much more like a pub, train, shop etc where they wear masks.

That's what I have argued from the start. The difference being certainly with trains and shops generally you aren't sitting with the same people nearly all day!

Maybe I should book several weekend holidays in France then at the end of each one I would have to quarantine for two weeks!! Twenty weekend breaks, 40 weeks quarantine upon return, sorted!

 

[bulkbiker]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pupils-pose-no-risk-of-spreading-covid-27q6zfd9l

Ah...

 

[HSSS]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pupils-pose-no-risk-of-spreading-covid-27q6zfd9l

Ah...

Schools at around 10% capacity and with social distancing in place during the assessed period. Hardly predictive of full capacity no distancing and riding community rates.

And what about onwards transmission from school not just within it

Aren’t the authors claiming misrepresentation and doesn’t it contradict itself ? And has it now been peer reviewed or is it still reports prior to this?

Two days ago the times was running this:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/older-pupils-spread-virus-like-adults-5ts6jr2pp

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/08/11/children-schools-coronavirus-leana-wen/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/09/world/coronavirus-covid-19.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willia...spread-covid-19-more-efficiently-than-adults/

https://www.theguardian.com/science...ning-about-covid-19-and-kids?CMP=share_btn_fb

 

[Tannith]

Climate change deniers branch out into mask denying. They quote an old paper about surgical infections, not respiratory tract infections, in a one month trial in an obscure hospital. It can't have been very impressive as it clearly didn't catch on.

"Climate change deniers branch out into mask denying."
And covid deniers also.

 

[Tannith]

Schools at around 10% capacity and with social distancing in place during the assessed period. Hardly predictive of full capacity no distancing and riding community rates.

And what about onwards transmission from school not just within it

Aren’t the authors claiming misrepresentation and doesn’t it contradict itself ? And has it now been peer reviewed or is it still reports prior to this?

Two days ago the times was running this:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/older-pupils-spread-virus-like-adults-5ts6jr2pp

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/08/11/children-schools-coronavirus-leana-wen/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/09/world/coronavirus-covid-19.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willia...spread-covid-19-more-efficiently-than-adults/

https://www.theguardian.com/science...ning-about-covid-19-and-kids?CMP=share_btn_fb

Schools reopening study Lancet:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(20)30250-9/fulltext

Findings
With increased levels of testing (between 59% and 87% of symptomatic people tested at some point during an active SARS-CoV-2 infection, depending on the scenario), and effective contact tracing and isolation, an epidemic rebound might be prevented. Assuming 68% of contacts could be traced, we estimate that 75% of individuals with symptomatic infection would need to be tested and positive cases isolated if schools return full-time in September, or 65% if a part-time rota system were used. If only 40% of contacts could be traced, these figures would increase to 87% and 75%, respectively. However, without these levels of testing and contact tracing, reopening of schools together with gradual relaxing of the lockdown measures are likely to induce a second wave that would peak in December, 2020, if schools open full-time in September, and in February, 2021, if a part-time rota system were adopted. In either case, the second wave would result in R rising above 1 and a resulting second wave of infections 2·0–2·3 times the size of the original COVID-19 wave. When infectiousness of children and young adults was varied from 100% to 50% of that of older ages, we still found that a comprehensive and effective test–trace–isolate strategy would be required to avoid a second COVID-19 wave.

Interpretation
To prevent a second COVID-19 wave, relaxation of physical distancing, including reopening of schools, in the UK must be accompanied by large-scale, population-wide testing of symptomatic individuals and effective tracing of their contacts, followed by isolation of diagnosed individuals.

 

[Daphne917]

The Scottish schools have now restarted and it will be interesting to see whether or not cases go up in the next few weeks. I was concerned about the number of people going on protests and visiting the coast a few weeks ago but the feared increase doesn’t seem to have materialised. It’s also worth remembering that the media can tend to hype news and ‘misrepresent figures’ sometimes thus engendering a climate of fear and uncertainty which, in many cases, is not warranted. I am still wary but have attended my work place twice since March and have felt perfectly safe with the measures that have been out in place.

 

[Fairygodmother]

Sadly I suspect we’ll only find out how safe, or not, a school environment is in mid to late September when the government has plunged on with its economic imperatives.
The only faint hope is that teachers will win the right to wear masks and visors at work.
It’ll be interesting, though, to see if the masses flocking back from France before quarantine’s imposed lead to a rise in cases. But will we know? Even the ‘numbers’ are getting daily more slippery and who trusts the current Minister of Education to be able to add them up?

 

[There is no Spoon]

not comparable to an office, much more like a pub, train, shop etc where they wear masks.

I see your point but it is wrong.
A school no matter how many time the classes change through out the day is still the same pupils in the same building each and every day. It is not comparable to a pub shop or train station, a collection of random strangers interacting and spreading an infection, that would be much harder to trace.

The concern is containment not safety.

If there is an outbreak in a school, and nobody thinks there will not be, you already have all the contact details of staff, students etc.. just as you would with an office.

• To be clear I do not agree that the schools should be open.
• I do not agree the masks are not enforced.

I believe the government is playing Russian Roulette with peoples life's, I believe in some little back room some where they have worked out a figure for acceptable losses and if you, your family or school are in one of these areas, as I am right now, that's jut tough noogie.

That is not a conspiracy rant just pragmatic thinking there will be flair ups, and there will be deaths.
I am not trying to be cavalier about that, we are speaking about peoples loved ones.

This is avoidable.

 

[Max68]

The proof of the Governments wally'ishness (don't think that's a word!!) when it comes to regard to public health is the French quarantine for example. Anyone who gets back yesterday or this morning doesn't have to quarantine but those who get back tomorrow do. In the Governments plan it's not a case of who has Covid that quarantines but who gets back after the deadline. Covid doesn't understand quarantine laws so positive people may well have got back early and then be able to return to work, visit shops, restaurants etc.

The panic in getting back will mean over crowded planes, trains and automobiles (the less funny version!) and I have heard that total strangers are booking private jets together. All in all far less social distancing than an orderly return would have been.

This virus is a strange one. As Daphne917 states above have the spikes emerged from crowded beaches and protests? Who knows. Firstly they were outside and we know that outside transmission is less. However we don't know where all these people lived. Out of thousands at a protest in London how many actually lived in London? You could have had a train load from say Manchester who were there and that's the reason for the spike there. No-one knows because you can't track and trace beach goers and protesters.

However if the virus spreads less outside why are Florida and California suffering so badly in the middle or their summer>? Could it be that theme parks have opened only weeks ago, and who attends them? Lots of kids!! Plus schools have returned.

So many questions still and no answers,.

 

[JRT]

The need for efficient testing, tracking and tracing and financial support if needed for those isolating seems to be the general consensus. Also the belief that if properly funded this is more effective on a local basis.
The risk in general is probably pretty low in most areas,especially if are able to maintain social distancing in work and social life .
The media really isnt helping. On the one hand blowing up every incident and bit of government speculation such as the concept that over 50s may have to isolate. On the other hand its everything back to normal and even as quarantine measures are bought in in France are producing articles on the 16 remaining countries you can still travel to.
There was no spike after protests or the beach invasions. Maybe because it was outdoors? Maybe because the majority involved were of age where only get mild infections or are asymptomatic?
I live very near one of the worst beach invasions. To be honest most locals would avoid the area like the plague ! Under 30s may have gone down there but on whole know of quieter alternatives. We do have a very high proportion of visitors from the Midlands, some areas of which are experiencing problems so I wonder if they became infected here but took it back with them! Interestingly looking at local infections the local areas have gone from being the lowest in the country to rising and a small increase on deaths. Nothing dramatic,but an increase.
According to the Guardian bit of increase in infections but deaths falling. Theres even the suggestion that there are fewer high risk people left to kill and the ones that are left are still mainly isolating. Certainly true of those in Care Homes whose lives have stopped and highest risk is from staff!
Of course if you are a high risk group there are still massive risks,predominantly from employment.
Reliable figures are increasingly hard to find and those we have are often from a fortnight ago. It's unlikely but I could be living in a potential hot zone and not know it!
Announcing the quarantine in France so far in advance makes no sense to me. All it means is that potentially infected holiday makers are free to spread the infection and of course return to work..
Its brutal but I think true that for the majority of the population life can return to pretty much normal.
I feel sorry for frontline workers in shops who are constantly in contact with the public and often abused.
Those who are retired have a choice in the risks they take,many will not be facing any financial changes.
Schools can probably open without any significant harm to childeren, well as far as we know.
At the bottom of the pile are those that were shielded/high risk. The actual numbers who are affected by work or school environment be they pupils or staff or carers must be very small in proportion to those that are not. Theoretically that should make it easier to resolve issues. Unfortunately the government has no interest whatsoever, after all what's a few more deaths in already compromised group? The great general public showed little concern when the services available to a lot of these groups disappeared or were on knife edge before the pandemic. Let's face it if the death of tens of thousands of people in care homes doesnt outrage people the plight of diabetics wont!

 

[There is no Spoon]

My opinion for what it's worth is both, It did occur to me that the fewer students in universities the fewer student loans to finance or is that just the cynic in me.

IF were playing Devils Advocate.....

1. Kids don't get Covid,... then keep the schools closed and send them to work in shops, cleaners in hospitals, nursing homes etc...
2. University's: the economy has collapsed there will be no jobs when you graduate so take the year off.. see rule one.
3. University's are now closed for a year there is no new admission so all the school kids with poor exams results, this year is to be considered a do over, in the mean time rule one.
4. Why go abroad to a country full of covid and warm beaches we have plenty of Covid here come on show some national spirit. There are beaches here too.
5. To all beach goers... There is a deadly pandemic what is wrong with you. From now on All beach goers and mass gatherings require occupants to be painted permanently green so the rest of us can cross the street when we see them coming.
6. All Covid Denyers and Anti-Maskers should be rounded up in a van, a comfy van with air conditionality and soft cushions, which smells nice, give a cup of tea and a sandwich and then set to work in the Covid ward at the nearest hospital (see rule 1). PPE will be provided for thous who wish to a vale themselves of it. Oh and yes pain em green see rule 5.
7. I could go on but .....

We would like to take this opportunity to formally apologise in advance to Kermit the Frog I am aware that he is Green and in no way do I endorse any discriminatory behaviour towards him now or in the future.

 

[JohnEGreen]

Do not forget the basic laws of stupidity.

"Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation."

We have seen this evidenced so well of recent times.

"The probability that a certain person will be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person."

Being a Prime Minister cabinet member or minister even a president does not exempt you from this law.

"A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses."

Well that covers the mask Refuseniks pretty well I think.

"Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid individuals. In particular non-stupid people constantly forget that at all times and places and under any circumstances to deal and/or associate with stupid people always turns out to be a costly mistake."

Draw your own conclusion to that one.

"A stupid person is the most dangerous type of person."

Seems perfectly clear to me.

 

[JRT]

IF were playing Devils Advocate.....

1. Kids don't get Covid,... then keep the schools closed and send them to work in shops, cleaners in hospitals, nursing homes etc...
2. University's: the economy has collapsed there will be no jobs when you graduate so take the year off.. see rule one.
3. University's are now closed for a year there is no new admission so all the school kids poor exams results year this year is to be considered a do over, in the mean time rule one.
4. Why go abroad to a country full of covid and warm beaches we have plenty of Covid here come on show some national spirit. There are beaches here too.
5. To all beach goers... There is a deadly pandemic what is wrong with you. From now on All beach goers and mass gatherings require occupants to be paint permanently green so the rest of us can cross the street when we see them coming.
6. All Covid Denyers and Anth Maskers should be rounded up in a van, a comfy van with air conditionality and soft cushions, which smells nice, give a cup of tea and a sandwich and then set to work in the Covid ward at the nearest hospital. PPE will be provided for thous who wish to a vale themselves of it. Oh and yes pain em green see rule 5.
7. I could go on but .....

We would like to take this opportunity to formally apologise in advance to Kermit the Frog I am aware that he is Green and in no way do I endorse any discriminatory behaviour towards him now or in the future.

 

[KK123]

Schools at around 10% capacity and with social distancing in place during the assessed period. Hardly predictive of full capacity no distancing and riding community rates.

And what about onwards transmission from school not just within it

Aren’t the authors claiming misrepresentation and doesn’t it contradict itself ? And has it now been peer reviewed or is it still reports prior to this?

Two days ago the times was running this:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/older-pupils-spread-virus-like-adults-5ts6jr2pp

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/08/11/children-schools-coronavirus-leana-wen/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/09/world/coronavirus-covid-19.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willia...spread-covid-19-more-efficiently-than-adults/

https://www.theguardian.com/science...ning-about-covid-19-and-kids?CMP=share_btn_fb

I was going to say exactly the same, how on earth can they have come to this conclusion when the schools virtually went straight into lockdown mode then gave up completely? No study has been done under normal circumstances, ie ALL the pupils back and no social distancing. I'm at a loss as to why anyone would take The Times study (or any other) as gospel when in every other scenario they are always asking for wide ranging evidence/papers galore/first hand experience/proper and realistic study groups and on and on. x

 

[Max68]

The sad thing with Governments, both past and present, is that they are never accountable for their actions, bar maybe losing the next General Election. You can't sue them or prosecute them whereas if one or two spent some time in a jail cell because their incompetent decisions cost lives unnecessarily (not just Covid) then you may see change in the way they make their decisions and govern.

On the other hand businesses and the like do from time to time get held accountable for their actions and even honest mistakes if people lose their lives. There will be some very nervous business owners, Head Teachers and Councils out there and it will be interesting to see what happens post Covid, if we ever get there, with regard to the blame game!

For the record I am generally not in opposition to schools opening. What I am against is the forcing back to work of the shielded/high risk/vulnerable "without" any options. If people are happy to go back, want to go back feel safe to go back etc, then fine, even if they are vulnerable, absolutely no issue with that, it's personal choice and everyone should have the right to decide what risk they will accept. What I have issue with is forcing vulnerable staff back and fining concerned parents if they decide to protect their children.

Options are what the Government are not giving us. I have said before there will be enough vulnerable staff and kids to have a continuing online learning option, "as well as" school return. I've also said before that new rules could be brought in to allow the clinically vulnerable to access pensions early without penalty if they wish to leave their jobs due to safety concerns. Allow concerned vulnerable to have access to Universal Credit without penalty if they leave their job voluntarily. There are hundreds of thousands of people who could do my job so giving me an option to leave without suffering severe financial hardship would open the door for someone unemployed willing to take the risk to step into my left vacancy.

There are options to protect those who need protecting but for whatever reason those options are being ignored.