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Covid and Work, Covid Advice and General Chat

The posters who confuse "sensible awareness, precautions and concern for not harming others" and "fear" astonish me.

For a relatively short time we are being asked to put up with some restrictions to save numerous lives, many people from a long term illness, and the economy from dribbling along in and out of lockdowns for years, and that is too much for some

A short, serious proper lockdown works. We haven't had one in this country yet. Those who went through years of war and rationing and restrictions must be wondering what is wrong with some people.

Fear indeed!!!! It's common sense and consideration for others.
 
Reactions: JRT


Indeed you are so right. I saw an article the other day suggesting teachers could sue the government for unsafe working practices or similar and all that was written in the comments by most people was how teachers have had six months off and were greedy just jumping on the compensation band wagon blah blah blah! Made my blood boil. Interestingly MSN has now stopped all comments sections on articles as I think too many arguments were starting.

I don't agree at all with a culture of compensation btw but interestingly the government issued guidance a couple of years ag that suggests you cannot sue them for anything at all now. One rule for one and all that! Almost like they saw all this coming!!

My MP's reply on the previous page suggests that the government just don't have a clue. I mean how can the Minister of Employment ask me to consult my Union about legal avenues that I can explore when it's her Government who have created this situation with their guidelines?! Don't know their backend from their elbow!!

I've got the Union involved now anyway. Waited two months for an Individual Risk Assessment and still nothing so the Union has emailed my Head. Just an olive branch, nothing nasty but it will at least make them aware that diabetes is a risk because to be honesty a lot of the staff are acting like there is no virus out there and there are mutterings of how face coverings are a hindrance etc. Like you say some people just don't seem concerned for others.
 
Mr_Pot said:
Why would they be untested? There is of course a shortage of tests but no doubt some capacity could be prioritised for this purpose.
Click to expand...
Possibly because they chuck them out of the hospitals before they have had the test results. Possibly because they just haven't been tested through inefficiency. But the cynic in me wonders whether they deliberately haven't been tested because it is likely that they have covid (maybe too sick to survive treatment), and the hospitals want to dump them asap. They know they risk not being accepted into care homes with a positive test so they just don't test?
 

Or in one case I know about.. (Excuse me for not providing a link.)

My brother in law had been removed from a single bed rehab room in a cancer unit after testing + for COVID.
After he recovered, 3 weeks on a demetia ward when the cancer unit wouldn't take him back.
There was a second guy moved a few hours previously to my BiL. He told me that guy didn't make it..
My BiL further recounted (via video chat.) it was the worst 3 weeks he ever had, one "old boy" kept waking him up & trying to push him out of bed.
The HCPs assumed my BiL had, had a "stroke." He requested they actually read his notes..
He was spoken to, like he didn't know what he was talking about regarding his own health requirements.

Eventually the cancer unit let him come back. He was given a couple of weeks to live after basically falling behind on his promising progression so he came home to be with his wife. (My sister.)

This was nearly 3 months ago? We lost him this Tuesday gone..
 
So sorry, @Jaylee that your BIL and the family had to go through such a dreadful experience as he was nearing the end of his life.
Hope that the sadness will soon fade and be replaced with memories of happier times.
 
I'm so sorry about your brother in law. From 2010 onwards my mother had several hospital admissions for a leg ulcer. Although she was not specifically on a dementia ward there were on occasions people with dementia on the ward that was quite upsetting for her. When my father was admitted to hospital in 2016 he had dementia and was on an older person's ward,the majority of whom had dementia. The staff were lovely but desperately understaffed. I spend between 12-8 every day making sure fed and hydrated. Most of the patients on the ward had come in from living in their own homes,most never went back to them but to care homes as their was insufficient community care to support them. Four years ago social care was on the precipice of disaster.
Bed blocking has been an issue for years. Social care has been underfunded and stigmatized for years. These poor older patients have few options,especially if they have no one to advocate for them.
It many ways it makes sense for care homes to be part of the solution. To overcome the stalemate over fees,which is always at the source of care the government has thrown money at the problem. It's a sticking plaster. You cant care properly for people if you havent got the staff to do it. Free PPE is pointless if no one to wear it.
Caring for a Covid positive patient can be done. My daughters care home managed it. The patient was isolated on half a floor that was empty. My daughter and a few volunteers spent 12hours on the floor. They were not allowed off the floor for breaks or any contact with other staff. The PPE they had was basic gloves apron and the basic surgical mask. The resident was bed bound as end of life.
A lot of time and resources. A lot of care homes can isolate a new resident for two weeks. However a mobile resident with dementia can be problematical.
It's a horrible situation with no answers. The isolation of care home residents is heartbreaking. My daughters care home has spent months protecting them,staff and residents tested weekly/monthly. Socially distanced activities etc. Relatives were finally being allowed in but with strict social distancing. A member of staff walked past such a visit and observed family hugging a resident. Now that resident,and several others have developed coughs,slight temperatures
.
The affects of this virus ripple out regardless of whether vulnerable or not.
 
The

The whole situation is an absolute tragedy. When we had concerns with mum last year she became ill with a severe stomach bug that needed hospitalisation,. They were ready to send her home at the end of the day even though she wasn't in control of herself physically and the physical illness had knocked her sideways mentally. Thankfully my ex who came with me knew the consultant at the hospital and explained that mum was showing signs of dementia and I had been basically looking after her but no one official would listen and of course without mum's say so are hands were tied in trying to keep her safe.

Whilst hospital was "~safer" for her it was a nightmare. That day my ex was the one taking mum to the toilet with this stomach bug because there wasn't enough staff and all this was pre Covid! Thankfully my ex was there or mum would have been sitting in her own mess unless I did it of course and no relative should ever have to see that!

Whilst in hospital she developed delirium and we spent weeks trying to get a capacity statement which is difficult when a patient has delirium. The staff were great but those in charge weren't. It was only after I had a face to face meeting with the ward sister and doctor that things improved because I had found out that they were just leaving food and drink at mum's bed and then taking it away if she didn't eat. Thing was she "couldn't eat" and it only improved when the statement diagnosed her as incapable and MRI's confirmed dementia. When we found this out about the eating we went in and fed her. I asked the ward sister for a copy of the minutes of our meeting and she emailed me two lines! The meeting lasted over an hour!

She was nine weeks in one hospital and then was moved to a dementia ward closer to us. They were very good but we were leant on to find a care home asap. Received very little help bar the nurses who again were great. We found a room at her current place and just had to go for it as there was so little time to think.,

Thankfully the care home has been excellent so far although it closed it's doors again on Tuesday in anticipation of the second wave. We were due to visit her last night for the first time in a month as appointments were so scarce. In many ways I am pleased they seem so on the ball but we feel dreadful that we can't see mum. Zoom is an option like it was during lockdown but zoom sessions with someone with dementia are very difficult.
 
Reactions: JRT
I think the Care Homes are on the ball now given what we know happened previously but again I'd question why we are so myopically focussed on this one thing.
My grandma, with dementia, is similarly locked down in a home. She is physically well cared for and is loved by her carers but I think there must be a lot of fear and confusion for such patients who may not understand why they cannot see their relatives in person or when they are allowed to see them, are not permitted to cuddle them (she is a cuddly grandma). This does not feel right and I cannot see an end point for these people who quite possibly have little time left. Surely they may wish to have a better quality of life and take a risk with infection rather than live in an isolated bubble indefinitely?
 
Please can you just show me that any short sharp lockdown works to do anything other than slightly suppress the virus? It may seem sensible and caring to you but it seems pointless and destructive to me, and could we start with the premise that people bothering to post are not heartless or selfish?
 
That sounds all to familiar Max. Dad was in hospital after a having a bit of a funny turn which turned into an infection. He went in fully mobile and lost his mobility. I relate to all that happened to your mother. There were two separate shifts on the ward,one better than the other. Regardless they were understaffed for the needs of the patients. Eventually we became quite a tight little band of carers making sure each others relatives were kept hydrated and fed.
Yes,zoom or phone calls so problematical with someone with dementia. It's so heartbreaking but at the moment no solution.
 
A short lockdown probably will suppress the virus, for a while. It’s here now, and it’s not going away. However, there’s a lot of catchup needed in testing, tracing, provision of facilities for treatment, etc etc. While I don’t, personally, have much optimism about the U.K.’s beloved govt.’s ability to create the infrastructure needed to deal well with Covid, a short lockdown might give a breathing space to people at the sharp end. We know that the last surge exhausted them.
 

I agree Nicole it is an awfully horrible situation. To have to walk away from mum when she puts her arms out for a hug is an awful situation and it destroys us every single time. I'd love nothing more than to give her a hug or hold her hand.

On the other hand I work in a school (as you will already know!!) so when I visit next I have no idea what I will be bringing into the home. Is a hug which she will forget about in ten minutes and ends up causing her to potentially suffocate to death worth it? Is that quality of life? If she infects others after I have infected her something that I could live with? Is causing my own mothers death something I could live with? No...…. As hard as it is I want my mum protected as much as she can be in the hope that we both might be around long enough to have a long hug without the risk that I could potentially kill her! Just my opinion and I do agree with you wholeheartedly as it's such a tragic scenario at the moment.
 
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Well I wrote back to my MP. Hopefully I'll be getting on her nerves now. Sure I'm doing the same to a few on here!!!

Have highlighted the bit that covers certain opinions!

Dear ,

Thank you again for your reply.

As you will see from the statistics the second wave is on its way as I pointed out in my email on 9th September 2020, and yet the clinically vulnerable are still not being protected which in turn will put serious pressure on the NHS. An article recently showed that in 1 in 3 hospital deaths due to Covid the patient had diabetes and yet we are still in the workplace during a second wave. Plenty of other studies across the board show categorically the vulnerability those with diabetes have to Covid. Whilst I understand that not every diabetic wishes to be protected where is the protection for those who do? Once again I have to question as to why, with the Government concerned about overloading hospitals again, steps aren’t being taken to protect those who need it?

GP’s are working non face to face unless necessary, receptionists in hospitals are behind Perspex screens, shop workers and many other public service workers are rarely in the close proximity of one person for long and every company I ring have limited telephone staff to keep them safe. Yet I as a clinically vulnerable school worker am expected to be in a small classroom with students who don’t wear masks for a minimum of 40 minutes at a time. My nephew at another school has just been tested after falling ill after being at school for just two weeks. He is young and if positive he will hopefully be okay but what about his parents and how long will it be before I fall victim at my school?

Your email below asks if there is any possible legal route I can pursue via a union? I’ve been in contact with my union for months and unions and schools are bound by Government guidelines so who would I be challenging legally??>>> The Government and it’s guidelines..........!!

The bar for a Covid space workplace in schools is set ridiculously low because if it were set at the same level as some other businesses the Government wouldn’t be able to get everyone back at school. Until those guidelines are looked at then there seems very little I can do. For sure there are those who are healthy and work in schools and are happy to be there and there are pupils who whilst are capable of spreading the virus are unlikely to get serious disease so I am not asking for the Government to close schools but lets protect the vulnerable school staff and children. The Government must surely state in guidance that all clinically vulnerable school staff are to work from home either until a vaccine is found, treatments ensure survival and prevent lingering after effects of the virus or when cases are at a low level. If there was official guidance to unions and schools from the Government that I must work from home then my issue would be solved. Surely Ms Davies this is the way to protect the vulnerable and get a grip on this virus and it doesn’t take any real in depth thinking to realise this!

Kind regards,
 
Nicola it certainly isnt right,its inhuman. I think the core dilemma is communal living and capacity.
If someone has capacity they could indeed decide they would rather take the risk than face such isolation. Unfortunately the way most care homes is run means that staff interact with all residents and you have a duty of care to the other residents.
Where a resident lacks capacity it's a whole different ballgame and would involve consultations etc.
Part of the problem is this is a new virus that seems to outsmart procedures in place for other viruses such as norovirus, influenza etc.
There are ways that care homes could navigate the situation but the majority have neither the staff or resources, some may not have the inclination.
Regardless social care needs to change. We have to genuinely change how we perceive the care of older people and decide that we value them enough to invest in their quality of life. Some countries such as Holland already embrace this. In many others including UK residents ,when you peel away a few layers of niceties are commodities to the anonymous chains that own them and answer to their shareholders before those they are paid very large amounts to protect and care for. The whole system is wrong and needs to change.
 
I think what is becoming more apparent is that the safety nets we have all relied on now have massive holes in! Most people dont come into contact with services and make assumptions about what is available. Work? Zero hours contracts and gig economy. Organisations that protect workers reduced, Unions reduced power. Education- for past decade underfunding and inequity. Social or affordable housing rare. An adequate benefit system that is a safety net for genuine need,gone. NHS? This pandemic if nothing else has highlighted massive inequalities. Those that are poor,badly educated,sick are at best invisible at worst ridiculed and demonized. Benefits Street anyone?
If economic forecasts are as grim as promised and those that have been doing quite nicely pre pandemic will also be in for an unpleasant surprise. The misery will spread upwards.Think it's only wasters and scroungers that rely on food banks? Think again. Renting? After benefit caps dont imagine housing benefits will cover your whole rent. Evicted by landlord? Good luck finding a roof over your head. Even those with dire medical need face years on waiting lists. Mortgage? By time interest support kicks in,if it even still exists under Universal Credit you will be lucky if not repossessed.
Did I read this in the Guardian? Facebook or social media? No I worked in Research and Campaigns for Citizens Advice.
 
I think Australia and NZ are good models for sharp lockdowns that have worked.
A short sharp lockdown worked for Auckland, NZ as the numbers they were dealing with were low. Victoria, Australia, is still in lockdown, approaching 10 weeks, as their numbers were in the mid-hundreds, where other states have got by on shorter lockdowns as the numbers were also low. For the UK, with such high rates, we will need a long lockdown to make any significant difference.
 


Just your last sentence shows what is all wrong with the system. I've relied on the fantastic volunteers at Citizens Advice for a whole scope of areas from when I was ill a few years ago to all of mum's affairs etc and whilst at times they can't do much to help because of the system they have been brilliant. Why are they volunteers? They should be key workers on good salaries. Always baffled me.
 
Citizens Advice are rather wonderful! They have saved my bacon a few times over the years so I wanted to give something back. They tend to be a bit of a mix of volunteers and paid staff. I was in AdviceLine and we were all volunteers supervised by a paid session supervisor who was a source of amazing knowledge. The volunteers are amazing. You have 12 weeks of excellent training and lots of support. You have to be able to commit to a day a week.In terms of what you do it's much more like a job than a voluntary placement. That said you gain fantastic skills. As it's a charity they rely on volunteers but some specialist advisors for benefits, McMillan are paid. My post as Research and Campaigns officer was paid,but only had funding for a year. It was a fantastic opportunity and something I had always wanted to do. At the end however it became draining as I was dealing with problems with Universal Credit, housing,poor working conditions etc and it was grim. That said its something I feel I want to get back to if pandemic dies down. I will never forget my son in law asking if I Daniel Blake was exaggerated and assuring him that I had come across every scenario in that film
 
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