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Dawn Phenomenon :(

S

Shady-Twist

Member
Messages
10
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Hi all, since last November I have been making a concerted effort to really bring my diabetes under control as I would like to get pregnant. My last HB1AC (from Nov) was around 83mmol/mol - obviously not good enough! Since then I have lost 17.5lbs and been on a low card diet. I am having another blood test next week, but from finger pricking I know that my sugars are now consistently between 4 & 6 before meals and between 6 & 8 two hrs after meals - EXCEPT(!) between about 5am and midday, when they just sky rocket no matter what I do. It is the one thing I seem to have NO control over and it actually seems to have got worse as I have got better control the rest of the day. To get a handle on it, I have tried eating an apple and some low fat cheese before bed, having some apple cider vinegar before bed, eating something as soon as I open my eyes in the morning, waking up at 3.30am to have a metformin and some milk. This morning I woke up at 3.30am, had a metformin and some skimmed milk, woke up at 7.30am - sugars 9.7, so went for a run/walk to get them down - which normally works and they are now 11.8! Nothing I try has ANY effect on it. This is really getting me down and I just can't think of what else to do. I can't take any other tablet during pregnancy. I'm seeing my specialist on the 20th March and I know she will want me to go on insulin, but I just want to avoid that if I can.

Has anyone got any other advice?
 
Hi and welcome,

It is very frustrating. If you search for this on the forum you will find a lot of threads about it. Sadly there doesn't seem to be a lot people can do. Our livers have minds of their own.

I am wondering why you are drinking milk? Milk is full of sugar (lactose), and semi skimmed and skimmed have even more than whole milk. Most of us T2's can't cope with too much of it. As for the increase immediately after exercise, this always happens to me, too. I have to wait a good hour after exercise before the benefit is felt. Did you have your breakfast before your run? That might help.
 
Thanks Bluetit, I didn't realise about the milk thing, my dietician told me to have it! She said my diet was now really good apart from a lack of calcium, so she told me to have skimmed milk! What's the best way for a diabetic to get calcium? I did have some breakfast before my run and it does normally bring my sugars down, but not today. I'm also withdrawing from Citalopram so I wonder if that's having an effect. I guess I'm feeling desperate as I want to get pregnant but don't want to have to have injections and also because having high sugars in the mornings is make me really really tired for the rest of the day, it would be horrible to think this would be my life from now on!
 
Hello shady-twist welcome to the forum
I have switched to unsweetened almond milk, it's low in carbs, high in calcium and only 29 calories per 200ml
 
You can also try cheese, unsweetened yogurts, broccoli, cabbage, nuts, and fish where you eat the bones such as sardines or tinned salmon. These are all high in calcium.

I wonder if your diet is causing the problems? Are you avoiding or reducing cereals, potatoes, rice, bread, pasta? Perhaps if you tell us what you are eating in a typical day we may be able to spot something.
 
Hi Shady-Twist,

I am T1, and suffered from Dawn Phenomenon for many years. It's only in recent years that I've been able to eliminate this. I give you my info below. I know that there are plenty of people that have learned to control their DP by a different method, and would disagree with me - it's just my own take on things, which works for me.

I used a Low-Carb diet for many years. In general it was OK for me. My HbA1c level was usually 6.x%, which many would consider OK. But I never felt that I had my levels under control. I would often get large spikes that I could not understand, often in the mornings and sometimes later.

Eventually I have found a diet that eliminates spikes completely.

This is a diet where I keep my eye on both my Carb and Protein intake.

Spikes in fasting blood-sugar are always caused by Gluconeogenesis - this is the release of Glycogen (stored in the liver) as Glucose into the blood-stream. What I have found is that if I limit the "fuel" for Gluconeogenesis (the Glycogen) then this does not occur.

Excess Carbs and Protein from the diet (Carbs that are not needed immediately for energy, and Protein that is not needed immediately for growth and repair) are sent to the liver and stored as Glycogen. The more that you send to the liver, the more fuel that you are making available for Gluconeogenesis over the next 24 hours.

I'm sure many others will offer their (easier) suggestions for defeating the DP. If you try them and are not successful, then I can suggest to limit your Carbs (as you are, already) AND also to limit your daily Protein intake to no more than 1g Protein for each KG of your ideal body weight. I make a prediction that this would stop Gluconeogenesis (including DP) in its tracks.

Hope it's helpful . . .

Regards :)
Antony
 
Bluetit1802 said:
You can also try cheese, unsweetened yogurts, broccoli, cabbage, nuts, and fish where you eat the bones such as sardines or tinned salmon. These are all high in calcium.

I wonder if your diet is causing the problems? Are you avoiding or reducing cereals, potatoes, rice, bread, pasta? Perhaps if you tell us what you are eating in a typical day we may be able to spot something.
Click to expand...

I have really changed round my diet recently, but I am aware I may have to change it even more. I tend to start with one slice of Vogel bread - toasted with Bertolli light, then for lunch I'll have 300ml of low-fat, low-sugar, low-carb soup, then for dinner I've been having something low carb like meat and veg, and for snacks either fruit or nuts. I'm losing weight and my sugars have gone down, but maybe I need to eat less protein to beat the DP????
 
diamondnostril said:
Hi Shady-Twist,

I am T1, and suffered from Dawn Phenomenon for many years. It's only in recent years that I've been able to eliminate this. I give you my info below. I know that there are plenty of people that have learned to control their DP by a different method, and would disagree with me - it's just my own take on things, which works for me.

I used a Low-Carb diet for many years. In general it was OK for me. My HbA1c level was usually 6.x%, which many would consider OK. But I never felt that I had my levels under control. I would often get large spikes that I could not understand, often in the mornings and sometimes later.

Eventually I have found a diet that eliminates spikes completely.

This is a diet where I keep my eye on both my Carb and Protein intake.

Spikes in fasting blood-sugar are always caused by Gluconeogenesis - this is the release of Glycogen (stored in the liver) as Glucose into the blood-stream. What I have found is that if I limit the "fuel" for Gluconeogenesis (the Glycogen) then this does not occur.

Excess Carbs and Protein from the diet (Carbs that are not needed immediately for energy, and Protein that is not needed immediately for growth and repair) are sent to the liver and stored as Glycogen. The more that you send to the liver, the more fuel that you are making available for Gluconeogenesis over the next 24 hours.

I'm sure many others will offer their (easier) suggestions for defeating the DP. If you try them and are not successful, then I can suggest to limit your Carbs (as you are, already) AND also to limit your daily Protein intake to no more than 1g Protein for each KG of your ideal body weight. I make a prediction that this would stop Gluconeogenesis (including DP) in its tracks.

Hope it's helpful . . .

Regards :)
Antony
Click to expand...

Thanks Antony, I will definitely go away and work out how much protein I'm having, I hadn't thought of that having an impact. Thanks :)
 
What you cannot do long term on a low carb diet is eat low fat and low protein. You could become tired and lethargic because you are losing too many calories (which provide our energy).If you go low carb, low fat, and low protein you have nothing else left to provide your energy requirements. It may work in the short term, but a diabetic diet is for life, not just for a few weeks, and this sort of diet is not sustainable. You either must increase fats or increase protein or a bit of both. The trick is to get the balance right for you, a balance that allows you to lose weight and control the BS.

Most of us on low carb eat a normal amount of protein - whatever you are used to - but increase our fats. There is no need to go overboard with fats, but we ditch all the low fat products, which can be bad for us in so many ways. Mainly, they have added sugar to replace the fat content, and are also very processed and contain unhealthy amounts of vegetable oils and additives. Research is now showing that fats are not the enemy, either for weight loss or healthy hearts. It is sugar and carbs that are the culprits. .Try a fry up - bacon, eggs, tomatoes and mushrooms. Delicious, very low carb, and sustainable.

Have a read of this thread for people just starting a low carb diet. You will find it useful http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/a-new-low-carb-guide-for-beginners.68695/
 
My DP has been under control now since I went on the pump. I used to have to wake up about 3am and take a bolus injection but the pump had solved this nightmare! It's one of the main reasons I was approved one.
 
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