Do I test if I am 'post diabetic'?

andcol · Jun 27, 2014

sarah said:
Andrew your replies have been very interesting and given me a lot of food for thought, so thanks for that. I probably don't have anything else to add to this thread but I remain firm in the conviction that "cured" isn't as straightforward as just getting a decent Hba1c a few times in a row and am not sure what purpose declaring yourself 'cured' makes anyway.

I agree that the whole thing is complex and the medical profession really does not understand much of it yet, but they will get there eventually. My personal view is that T2 is actually many different types which have different causes at the onset but all eventually head down the same path unless something can be done to stop it.

I am going to be really controversial here in that I do not say I have diabetes or that I am diabetic - You will notice that I say a diabetic response... I find labels to be unhelpful.

SJC said:
It's concerned me somewhat as a prediabetic whose BG Ha1c has now gone down to 37. I still occasionally get readings of over 6.5 - 7.0 2 hr post meals....and yet I am not even classed as prediabetic right at this moment in time. Should these kind of figures I have read in this thread alarm me? Should I be worried my hourly BG is much bigger than I think because I don't test it. Those figures don't sit well with me and it's all confusing me a bit seeing as though my BGs gone down. Why is this all so confusing!! ???

No you shouldn't worry it will raise your BG levels No you really shouldn't worry it is long term exposure that causes the damage that is why the docs look at the HbA1c now. I am hoping to be at 37 or so on my next HbA1c as I was at 40 3 months after diagnoses of 94 (got to see some further progress)

SJC · Jun 27, 2014

sarah said:
@SJC sorry if I have alarmed you. If you're happy with your numbers, that's the main thing.

Just feel they kind of don't tally with the results of my tests and after all I am prediabetic, (well, according to last test, not really considered that range now), and definitely not diabetic. I get the gist of the one hour readings and you are right as it's all a personal thing at the end of the day.

SJC · Jun 27, 2014

Andrew Colvin said:
I agree that the whole thing is complex and the medical profession really does not understand much of it yet, but they will get there eventually. My personal view is that T2 is actually many different types which have different causes at the onset but all eventually head down the same path unless something can be done to stop it.

I am going to be really controversial here in that I do not say I have diabetes or that I am diabetic - You will notice that I say a diabetic response... I find labels to be unhelpful.

No you shouldn't worry it will raise your BG levels No you really shouldn't worry it is long term exposure that causes the damage that is why the docs look at the HbA1c now. I am hoping to be at 37 or so on my next HbA1c as I was at 40 3 months after diagnoses of 94 (got to see some further progress)

Good luck with that Andrew

AndBreathe · Jun 27, 2014

Andrew Colvin said:
I agree that the whole thing is complex and the medical profession really does not understand much of it yet, but they will get there eventually. My personal view is that T2 is actually many different types which have different causes at the onset but all eventually head down the same path unless something can be done to stop it.

I am going to be really controversial here in that I do not say I have diabetes or that I am diabetic - You will notice that I say a diabetic response... I find labels to be unhelpful.

No you shouldn't worry it will raise your BG levels No you really shouldn't worry it is long term exposure that causes the damage that is why the docs look at the HbA1c now. I am hoping to be at 37 or so on my next HbA1c as I was at 40 3 months after diagnoses of 94 (got to see some further progress)

If I said how many times I would like to "Like" this post, people would think I was a groupie.

this is too difficult · Jun 27, 2014

Andrew Colvin said:
I agree that the whole thing is complex and the medical profession really does not understand much of it yet, but they will get there eventually. My personal view is that T2 is actually many different types which have different causes at the onset but all eventually head down the same path unless something can be done to stop it.

I am going to be really controversial here in that I do not say I have diabetes or that I am diabetic - You will notice that I say a diabetic response... I find labels to be unhelpful.

No you shouldn't worry it will raise your BG levels No you really shouldn't worry it is long term exposure that causes the damage that is why the docs look at the HbA1c now. I am hoping to be at 37 or so on my next HbA1c as I was at 40 3 months after diagnoses of 94 (got to see some further progress)

T1 seems to be specific. The rest of us seem to have BG issues for whatever reason. I just did another one of my silly tests. Tesco Spag ball. 52g of carbs. Pre 4.9. Tested every 10 minutes. Peaked at 7.6 at 60 minutes. Still at 6.1 at 2 hours. 2and a half hours 5.3.
This seems to be non diabetic to me, but I can have 2 slices of toast and hit 8.5.

Lamont D · Jun 27, 2014

If I had a cheeseburger. My BSLs would spike at around 9.2 after 1 hour, after 2 hours it would 7.4. I start at say 4.5. That to me would be too high.
If I had a cheeseburger without the bun, it would be at least two points lower, so after 1 hour 5.6 and two hour, it would be 4.7.

It is the extra carbs that do it!

It really doesn't matter what you label, the results of testing will always bear out that the poison we are consuming, wether we are diabetics or not is the bun in the cheeseburger!
.

this is too difficult · Jun 27, 2014

nosher8355 said:
If I had a cheeseburger. My BSLs would spike at around 9.2 after 1 hour, after 2 hours it would 7.4. I start at say 4.5. That to me would be too high.
If I had a cheeseburger without the bun, it would be at least two points lower, so after 1 hour 5.6 and two hour, it would be 4.7.

It is the extra carbs that do it!

It really doesn't matter what you label, the results of testing will always bear out that the poison we are consuming, wether we are diabetics or not is the bun in the cheeseburger!
.

You seem to be almost diabetic.

zand · Jun 27, 2014

nosher8355 said:
If I had a cheeseburger. My BSLs would spike at around 9.2 after 1 hour, after 2 hours it would 7.4. I start at say 4.5. That to me would be too high.
If I had a cheeseburger without the bun, it would be at least two points lower, so after 1 hour 5.6 and two hour, it would be 4.7.

It is the extra carbs that do it!

It really doesn't matter what you label, the results of testing will always bear out that the poison we are consuming, wether we are diabetics or not is the bun in the cheeseburger!
.

The bun does make a good 'plate' for the cheese and burger though, so it does have its uses.

Tall Paul · Jun 27, 2014

SJC said:
So, do you believe it's possible that somebody of slight stature or even underweight who gets diabetes can not recover in the same way as someone who is overweight?

Hey there SJC.

Yeah, I know what you're saying - if you don't have much excess weight to lose as a T2 diabetic, it would seem to raise questions about Prof Taylor's hypothesis.

But I can only pass on what he has said on the matter (from the Newcastle university website already linked to by myself and AndBreathe):

A crucial point is that individuals have different levels of tolerance of fat within liver and pancreas. Only when a person has more fat than they can cope with does type 2 diabetes develop. In other words, once a person crosses their personal fat threshold, type 2 diabetes develops. Once they successfully lose weight and go below their personal fat threshold, diabetes will disappear.

Some people can tolerate a BMI of 40 or more without getting diabetes. Others cannot tolerate a BMI of 22 without diabetes appearing, as their bodies are set to function normally at a BMI of, say 19. This is especially so in people of South Asian ethnicity.

Could it work for people with a normal BMI?

Yes, most certainly, provided that the diagnosis of type 2 diabetes is correct. Some people are unable to cope with even moderate amounts of fat in their liver and pancreas. Type 2 diabetes only happens when a Personal Fat Threshold is exceeded. Losing weight within the range which is “normal” for the general population is then essential for health.

The website also links to a couple of newspaper articles by journalist Richard Doughty, who had a BMI of 23.0 at diagnosis of Type2, and had good results by reducing his BMI to 19.6.

this is too difficult · Jun 27, 2014

Tall Paul said:
Hey there SJC.

Yeah, I know what you're saying - if you don't have much excess weight to lose as a T2 diabetic, it would seem to raise questions about Prof Taylor's hypothesis.

But I can only pass on what he has said on the matter (from the Newcastle university website already linked to by myself and AndBreathe):

The website also links to a couple of newspaper articles by journalist Richard Doughty, who had a BMI of 23.0 at diagnosis of Type2, and had good results by reducing his BMI to 19.6.

I don't think losing weight matters. I think eating in a way that makes you loose weight is the point.

Tall Paul · Jun 27, 2014

sarah said:
I probably don't have anything else to add to this thread but I remain firm in the conviction that "cured" isn't as straightforward as just getting a decent Hba1c a few times in a row and am not sure what purpose declaring yourself 'cured' makes anyway. If you have the propensity to get diabetic blood glucose numbers, even if you currently don't, then that's diabetic.

Hey sarah.

I think that your cautious attitude to the subject is justified, I would respect that.
(Especially given how unclear the consensus of the medical and scientific community is at this point).

I would say though, that your last sentence does leave the subject of "propensity" rather open ended.
Someone who has been diagnosed as "pre-diabetic" has the propensity to get diabetic blood glucose numbers (which is why they've been diagnosed with it). And yet they are clearly not diabetic (yet).

It would seem to me that if someone with Type 2 diabetes were to experience improvements in their insulin responsiveness and/or beta cell function, to a similar level of someone with "pre-diabetes" or better, then a diagnostic category similar to "pre-diabetes" would seem to me to be justified... (acknowledging that both people would be aware of an increased risk of developing full diabetic symptoms in the future).

Tall Paul · Jun 27, 2014

this is too difficult said:
I don't think losing weight matters. I think eating in a way that makes you loose weight is the point.

Sorry TITD, I don't quite follow your point?

The impression I got from Prof Taylor's info was that it WAS the weight loss that mattered (in particular, the loss of visceral fat).

A particular low calorie diet was used for the clinical tests, and a change in eating habits is emphasized throughout in order to achieve and sustain that weight loss - but the impression I get from his info is that he considers the loss of visceral fat to be more important than the way you lose it.

Pipp · Jun 27, 2014

Thank you to everyone who has posted and taken an interest. I am quite overwhelmed by the responses.

Unfortunately I am not going to be able to respond fully for a while, as I am away from easily accessed wifi and broadband.

I have briefly scanned the posts, and as soon as I am able will give them the attention they deserve.

Just a few comments:

My main reason for starting thread was to gauge opinion on whether I should be testing BG. confirmed my decision and I have meter and will be testing for at least the next few weeks.

I seem to have instigated a debate about whether or not anyone T2 can be cured. Just like to remind folks I have not claimed to be cured. Just wondered how to categorise non-diabetic levels for 3 years. To those who are in a similar position as I am, but want to still claim they are diabetic, fine, I respect that. I like to claim that I do not appear to have diabetes, at the moment. Hope you can respect that too.

I appreciate @sarah uses different diagnostic scale, which is her personal choice, but I use the same diagnostic measuring method that was used in my Original diabetes diagnosis. I agree with the comments of @Andrew Colvin on this.

I also appreciate the posters who have suggested I need to be vigilant, I agree and I am not likely to return to my pre-diagnosis lifestyle. Which is why, tempted though I am, I will not be experimenting with crazy levels of high sugar just to appease the curiosity of some folks. Not because I don't have the courage of my convictions, but because I am trying to lose around 5 stones, and not going to jeopardise that with games of chicken or Russian roulette.

I will, when I have time, and can have uninterrupted Internet access, read the posts and respond fully. In the meantime, please feel free to comment and debate in my absence.

Much gratitude to you all. Long may we continue to be mutually supportive and respectful of each and everyone of us no matter whether we agree or disagree.
Pipp

sanguine · Jun 27, 2014

Andrew Colvin said:
I agree that the whole thing is complex and the medical profession really does not understand much of it yet, but they will get there eventually. My personal view is that T2 is actually many different types which have different causes at the onset but all eventually head down the same path unless something can be done to stop it.

I think Jenny Ruhl said that diabetes was more a symptom than a disease - several causes, same condition.

mine · Jun 29, 2014

how many times did they approve new drug and later withdrawn it. a mistake in medical theory and literature is a mistake and will remain a mistake unless we correct it. meanwhile, would you rather wait and stuff yourself with medication or reverse the **** thing?

i think its personal, i believe in evidence. remission , reverse or cure. they are just description before things settle down. mind you all by naming it a chronic disease. big company will be making a lot from us.

this is too difficult · Jun 29, 2014

sarah said:
Andrew your replies have been very interesting and given me a lot of food for thought, so thanks for that.

Obviously some diabetics don't think it's worth testing after an hour and are happy with just a two-hour reading, whereas some of us are not. People have to find their own ways of managing their own condition. I personally would not be comfortable knowing just my two hour figure as I know that no matter what my one-hour peak, my two hours is at worst in the 6's, so if I just go by that, I can manage full sugar coke (for example) or a big slab of cake or pretty much anything that if I tested at one hour, I would know to avoid like the plague.

I probably don't have anything else to add to this thread but I remain firm in the conviction that "cured" isn't as straightforward as just getting a decent Hba1c a few times in a row and am not sure what purpose declaring yourself 'cured' makes anyway. If you have the propensity to get diabetic blood glucose numbers, even if you currently don't, then that's diabetic.

I know that If I eat the wrong things for any length of time My HbA1c would go back to level it was at. I can see this by the results I usually get when I eat the wrong things. I can occasionally eat a fair amount of carbs and have good results, but I sometimes get a bad result when eating things that should be ok. The level of the spikes is what I fear most.

this is too difficult · Jun 29, 2014

Tall Paul said:
Sorry TITD, I don't quite follow your point?

The impression I got from Prof Taylor's info was that it WAS the weight loss that mattered (in particular, the loss of visceral fat).

A particular low calorie diet was used for the clinical tests, and a change in eating habits is emphasized throughout in order to achieve and sustain that weight loss - but the impression I get from his info is that he considers the loss of visceral fat to be more important than the way you lose it.

I have lost over 4 stones in 4 months. My HbA1c dropped every time but my BG self test results seem to be the same as they were after I started to eat more healthily. So losing the weight seems to have had little effect on me. It is what I eat that keeps my results low. Funnily all my doctor could see was the weight loss.

kyrani99 · Jun 30, 2014

If you have to stick to a diet /exercise regime you can say you have reversed the diabetic condition but that is not a cure because if that person comes off the diet then they are back to being diabetic.

I can say I have cured my diabetes and am an ex-diabetic because for some years after my bgs were back to normal I tested and confirmed that AND in that time I reverted back to my old diet, eat whatever I like and my bgs are normal. That is now 20 years ago!

this is too difficult · Jun 30, 2014

kyrani99 said:
If you have to stick to a diet /exercise regime you can say you have reversed the diabetic condition but that is not a cure because if that person comes off the diet then they are back to being diabetic.

I would not even say it is reversed, just controlled.

Raspin · Jul 1, 2014

Just to add my tuppence. Pipp, top drawer, keep it up. Forget the labels you've done amazingly well.

Also, 6.8 two hours after eating some bad stuff to my mind is non-diabetic levels.

Yesterday me and my wife had the exact same lunch for science. It was a white baguette with sausage and bacon with lots of ketchup (i think the bloke in the sandwich shop got carried away). Today i'm back to salad and tuna as every other day.

We tested before, She was 4.7 and I was 5.3. We ate the baguettes, nothing else, and 2 hours later tested. She was 7.7 and I was 9.2. She has been tested for diabeties very recently and isn't. Your 6.8 is a fantastic result.

Do I test if I am 'post diabetic'?

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