Dr Zoe Harcombe on Top Form Veganuary - LBC

[Mbaker]

If you get to meet Zoe she is a petite lady. Once she starts talking you soon realise she is akin to Eddie Hall in terms of her literacy regarding health matters, truly astonishing levels of knowledge, attention to detail and dissemination of facts for the likes of me.

Yesterday evening (2nd January 2020) Zoe was the first invited speaker (surprised me as the topic was about Veganuary
For the next 5 to 6 days the catch-up is available via the Global Player App, using the following show:
Global Player / Catch up / LBC / 2nd January / Clive Bull 7pm - 10pm/

Clive Bull was the host, who was a fair sceptical questioner (unlike some of the other presenters who have accepted the "facts" as they stand and give a free pass to anything Vegan....anyway).

Below are some time slots and bullet points for what Zoe said, and little old me as the 3rd contributor:

• 00.54:40
  Dr Zoe Harcombe:
  Not a supporter of Veganuary as it is not healthy
  No meat, fish, eggs or diary products, which are the most nutritious foods. Clive alternative view
• 
  
• Eat Lancet
  Drive since 1977 (US), 83 (UK) - Eat carbohydrates and avoid red meat
• 
  
• Issues with Vegan diet:
  Vitamin B12, Vitamin A conversion Beta Corotine, Vitamin D - body needs animal version, Omega 3, Iodine, Iron requirements
  Nothing more healthy liver
  Being Vegetarian is better than being Vegan, Pescatarian better than Vegetarian
  We are designed to eat animals, top soil can only be rejuvenated by rummants, Vegan food destroys soil
  
• Meat substitutes, problem with fake things, so eat real food, Game changers produces 140 million dollar investment in Pea Protein
  Steak or a substitute with 20 30 ingredients
  
• Climate change, meat quality

• 00:35:42
  My Points: (go by the name of Mike (as some of my clients listen to LBC, so I want to be anonymous)
  Explained 500 diabetes related deaths per week
  
• Plugged diabetetes.co.uk twice (saying it was number 1, above the official site) and directed towards success stories
  Meat based diet fixes diabetes
  Lied to for the last 50 / 60 years regarding diet
  Faddy exclusive of fat diets, we do full fat, full diary, full animal, why are we getting the best results
  I ignored the rubbish advice, low fat high carb nonsense
  Grand parents - Meat and 2 Veg, butter, drippling lard, cheap cuts of meat (Clive Did not like this (I think the fats))
  Compare 1970's obesity rate in Britain (2%) to now 25%, with over weight circa 65%
• Compared Dr Neal Barnard's results for HbA1c to meat based)

What was clear to me is that "we" (Omnivores / Carnivores) are going to have to do some of the below to keep meat on the table:

1. Ensure the likes of Zoe are promoted as much as possible
2. Get organised:
   1. Those in Remission please consider getting this formally put on your medical record (you earned this and it makes it hard to argue against your status)
   2. Support those of us who are happy to make respectful representations / surveys. Do you realise how powerful it could be to have 20 in remission Type 2's making the same point to the powers that be in a succinct manner with media involvement (watch this space).

 

[The Pirate Twins]

Most of it is tosh.

Throughout all of time people have come along with the latest and greatest diet to do this that and everything else, fancy a Tudor or Edwardian diet or even follow the teachings of Dr Kellogs?

No I doubt it but at the time was seen to save the soul.

Current mass produced farming practices, whether they are plant or animal based is wrecking the planet because there are too many people in too small a space.

If you want to eat plants then fine, let people eat them, you want to eat meat, the fine do so, someone will come along and rubbish both in time.

What's the answer?

No idea.

Find your own diet that suited you and stop trashing everybody else.

 

[Oldvatr]

Most of it is tosh.

Throughout all of time people have come along with the latest and greatest diet to do this that and everything else, fancy a Tudor or Edwardian diet or even follow the teachings of Dr Kellogs?

No I doubt it but at the time was seen to save the soul.

Current mass produced farming practices, whether they are plant or animal based is wrecking the planet because there are too many people in too small a space.

If you want to eat plants then fine, let people eat them, you want to eat meat, the fine do so, someone will come along and rubbish both in time.

What's the answer?

No idea.

Find your own diet that suited you and stop trashing everybody else.

I think if you saw the draft Climate Change Bill about to be presented to UK parliament for legislation by the IPCC, then you will see that it mandates an 80% reduction in animal foodstuffs by 2050, and the sequestration of livestock farmland for conversion to monocultured crops, and biomass instead.

Edited to remove content that is not related to Diabetes/

 

[Oldvatr]

If you get to meet Zoe she is a petite lady. Once she starts talking you soon realise she is akin to Eddie Hall in terms of her literacy regarding health matters, truly astonishing levels of knowledge, attention to detail and dissemination of facts for the likes of me.

Yesterday evening (2nd January 2020) Zoe was the first invited speaker (surprised me as the topic was about Veganuary
For the next 5 to 6 days the catch-up is available via the Global Player App, using the following show:
Global Player / Catch up / LBC / 2nd January / Clive Bull 7pm - 10pm/

Clive Bull was the host, who was a fair sceptical questioner (unlike some of the other presenters who have accepted the "facts" as they stand and give a free pass to anything Vegan....anyway).

Below are some time slots and bullet points for what Zoe said, and little old me as the 3rd contributor:

• 00.54:40
  Dr Zoe Harcombe:
  Not a supporter of Veganuary as it is not healthy
  No meat, fish, eggs or diary products, which are the most nutritious foods. Clive alternative view
• 
  
• Eat Lancet
  Drive since 1977 (US), 83 (UK) - Eat carbohydrates and avoid red meat
• 
  
• Issues with Vegan diet:
  Vitamin B12, Vitamin A conversion Beta Corotine, Vitamin D - body needs animal version, Omega 3, Iodine, Iron requirements
  Nothing more healthy liver
  Being Vegetarian is better than being Vegan, Pescatarian better than Vegetarian
  We are designed to eat animals, top soil can only be rejuvenated by rummants, Vegan food destroys soil
  
• Meat substitutes, problem with fake things, so eat real food, Game changers produces 140 million dollar investment in Pea Protein
  Steak or a substitute with 20 30 ingredients
  
• Climate change, meat quality

• 00:35:42
  My Points: (go by the name of Mike (as some of my clients listen to LBC, so I want to be anonymous)
  Explained 500 diabetes related deaths per week
  
• Plugged diabetetes.co.uk twice (saying it was number 1, above the official site) and directed towards success stories
  Meat based diet fixes diabetes
  Lied to for the last 50 / 60 years regarding diet
  Faddy exclusive of fat diets, we do full fat, full diary, full animal, why are we getting the best results
  I ignored the rubbish advice, low fat high carb nonsense
  Grand parents - Meat and 2 Veg, butter, drippling lard, cheap cuts of meat (Clive Did not like this (I think the fats))
  Compare 1970's obesity rate in Britain (2%) to now 25%, with over weight circa 65%
• Compared Dr Neal Barnard's results for HbA1c to meat based)

What was clear to me is that "we" (Omnivores / Carnivores) are going to have to do some of the below to keep meat on the table:

1. Ensure the likes of Zoe are promoted as much as possible
2. Get organised:
   1. Those in Remission please consider getting this formally put on your medical record (you earned this and it makes it hard to argue against your status)
   2. Support those of us who are happy to make respectful representations / surveys. Do you realise how powerful it could be to have 20 in remission Type 2's making the same point to the powers that be in a succinct manner with media involvement (watch this space).

As you say, a bit unexpected for Zoe to be a lead presenter on a Veganuary based show, but I can see the point of it. People about to enter into a severely restricted diet such as a vegan or WFPB diet need to be properly advised on how to replace these known deficienies in their chosen WOE. They will be ok for a while, but longterm they will suffer from a degradation in health unless they compensate. This is why Veganuary is acting irresponsibly since they do not give out this advice and just hope to sign up as many members as they can. Even the Vegan Society website is missing out these elephants in the room: the only one they admit to is B12, and they blithely dismiss the others as being available in some form or other on a vegan diet without giving any detailed guidance.

The list given by Zoe above is incomplete. There are difficulties associated with sourcing the following

Vitamins B12, A, K2, D3, omega 3 DHA and EPA, calcium, iron, iodine,selenium,choline, L Carnitine, Carnosine,R-ALA, several of the amino acids (non essential since our bodies can synthesise most of them but at much reduced efficiency). There may be others that even I have missed in my research

The primary problem regarding the plant based diets as a whole is that the phytates in the plants prevent proper metabolism of these essential nutrients: for example, spinach is quoted as being high in non heame iron, but the phytates mean that only a small amount actually gets into our bloodstream to be used in making red blood cells. This is important for any diabetic on Metformin, say, since this can lead to iron deficiency anaemia, and the loss of B12 makes that even more likely)

The other dietary problem associated with plant based diets is that they are often quite rich in heavy metals such as copper, cadmium, or aluminium, which can be harmful to us. Also the extensive use of artificial fertilizers means that plants can have high residue of toxins in them which canot be washed off. Add in that much of the plant based protein is now derived from GMO plants such as pea and soy then I have concerns too. The Impossible Meat people are proud to announce that they now synthesise haem iron and B12 from algae. What they don't say is that the algae is specially GMO modified for the task, and it has to be killed off properly before the protazoa can be used in a product. In a high output mass production line factory to maintain throughput to meet the demands of Veganuary, say, then quality control may become an issue. There are currently no food standards applicable to the synthetic meat industry, and no watchdog oversight either.

 

[HSSS]

An excellent listen.

 

[Mbaker]

As you say, a bit unexpected for Zoe to be a lead presenter on a Veganuary based show, but I can see the point of it. People about to enter into a severely restricted diet such as a vegan or WFPB diet need to be properly advised on how to replace these known deficienies in their chosen WOE. They will be ok for a while, but longterm they will suffer from a degradation in health unless they compensate. This is why Veganuary is acting irresponsibly since they do not give out this advice and just hope to sign up as many members as they can. Even the Vegan Society website is missing out these elephants in the room: the only one they admit to is B12, and they blithely dismiss the others as being available in some form or other on a vegan diet without giving any detailed guidance.

The list given by Zoe above is incomplete. There are difficulties associated with sourcing the following

Vitamins B12, A, K2, D3, omega 3 DHA and EPA, calcium, iron, iodine,selenium,choline, L Carnitine, Carnosine,R-ALA, several of the amino acids (non essential since our bodies can synthesise most of them but at much reduced efficiency). There may be others that even I have missed in my research

The primary problem regarding the plant based diets as a whole is that the phytates in the plants prevent proper metabolism of these essential nutrients: for example, spinach is quoted as being high in non heame iron, but the phytates mean that only a small amount actually gets into our bloodstream to be used in making red blood cells. This is important for any diabetic on Metformin, say, since this can lead to iron deficiency anaemia, and the loss of B12 makes that even more likely)

The other dietary problem associated with plant based diets is that they are often quite rich in heavy metals such as copper, cadmium, or aluminium, which can be harmful to us. Also the extensive use of artificial fertilizers means that plants can have high residue of toxins in them which canot be washed off. Add in that much of the plant based protein is now derived from GMO plants such as pea and soy then I have concerns too. The Impossible Meat people are proud to announce that they now synthesise haem iron and B12 from algae. What they don't say is that the algae is specially GMO modified for the task, and it has to be killed off properly before the protazoa can be used in a product. In a high output mass production line factory to maintain throughput to meet the demands of Veganuary, say, then quality control may become an issue. There are currently no food standards applicable to the synthetic meat industry, and no watchdog oversight either.

Wow, your knowledge is exemplary. I know Sv3rige lists deficiencies in his videos.

 

[Oldvatr]

Wow, your knowledge is exemplary. I know Sv3rige lists deficiencies in his videos.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-plants#9

I forgot to add zinc to my list. And Creatine. And Taurine.

Also I have seen vitamin B2 being a common defiency in vegan diet. It is found in many plant foods, but seems to be a required additive for vegan milk products such as soya milk, hemp milk and some fortified breakfast cereals, not forgetting that Marmite and Vegemite are both fortified too., Again it seems the phytochemicals are reducing effectiveness of the plant sources.

 

[Oldvatr]

Hot off the press this morning. Oxford University study show casual vegan use by general public is leading to nutrient deficiencies.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science...ry-veganuary-sparks-drop-essential-nutrients/
Edit to add: here is one they prepared earlier, and it is an interesting read as well,

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/dec/29/is-veganism-as-good-for-you-as-they-say

I note that this article praises plant based diets as being rich in nitrates that promote heart health and cadiovascular protection. On the other hand it seems nitrates are blamed for causing colorectal cancer and is strongly associated with the use of nitrates as a preservative in processed meats. This article does mention the recent studies that showed vegans do not show decreased incidence in these diseases than others.

 

[HSSS]

Cant

Hot off the press this morning. Oxford University study show casual vegan use by general public is leading to nutrient deficiencies.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science...ry-veganuary-sparks-drop-essential-nutrients/
Edit to add: here is one they prepared earlier, and it is an interesting read as well,

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/dec/29/is-veganism-as-good-for-you-as-they-say

I note that this article praises plant based diets as being rich in nitrates that promote heart health and cadiovascular protection. On the other hand it seems nitrates are blamed for causing colorectal cancer and is strongly associated with the use of nitrates as a preservative in processed meats. This article does mention the recent studies that showed vegans do not show decreased incidence in these diseases than others.

Can’t read the first link as it requires an account

 

[Oldvatr]

Cant

Can’t read the first link as it requires an account

Actually they are all protected behind an account wall. Telegraph, New Scientist, Oxford Martin School are all copyrighting this report material. I cannot find the study report although it seems to have been published it is not held in any archive I can access either. You can currently read the first opening paras of the abbstract on the New Scientist website which gives the flavour.

However, by purchasing either of those periodicals should give the information so it is not actually locked out from the public domain.

 

[Oldvatr]

Latest findings on Impossible Foods testing regimes. on the day they launch tjhe Impossible Potk Sausage on the world

Firstly, Impossible Food productsa and ingredients are tested using animal testing. Peta do not suppot these products.

Secondly the FDA has refused them a licence because the heme iron is using GMO.
https://www.gmoscience.org/rat-feeding-studies-suggest-the-impossible-burger-may-not-be-safe-to-eat/

Lastly the concentration of heme iron in a burger is not controlled and in some cases seriously overdoses the RDA iron intake, which can be dangerous to humans, as excess iron in the body builds up and becomes toxic since it is not excreted in the normal way. So we may get away with the occasional burger, but if it becomes a habit then it becomes potentially harmful.

Apparently the new sausage is heavily spiced so you don;t taste the soya, but it is dry texture, rather like Quorn is for mince. They are hoping to sell it to the Chinese in a big way. Not sure what the sausage skin is made from, but obviosuly not the usual ones, so maybe cellulose based, in which case may upset the appendix since we cannot digest cellulose. Or it is plastic? both of these are in use today on vegetarian products, apparently.

One brand is made from water and polysaccharides, i.e. sugar. It must not be fried though, and is not up to robust handling or high tmperatures. Not having seen the new sausage, it may be skinless, of course.