Drawn in-Chewed up-Spat out.

[colmc555]

Hi guys,
First of all, thank you for all your help and advice and for taking the time to read my long winded posts.
Just a wee update,
Thats me been off my on call for 2 weeks now , so i have had plenty of rest and the you would not believe the change in how i feel,my bloods have settled down ,i dont feel ill anymore , my stomach problems are starting to clear up too ,thanks to eating the right things at the right time.Its amazing the difference 2 weeks can make.,
I have good news on the job front too, i bumped into an old boss yesterday and within 5 minutes have secured myself another job starting in May, its with a removal company with whom i worked for for 8 years and left on good terms ,so plenty of exercise at work again can only be a good thing.
The only problems now is waiting,I will not go back to working all day and night for my current employer ,my health is more important , but i know when i tell him this he will send me home sick , which i cant afford, so my plan is to tell him i am available for all duties now, however I will not break the law , therefore i will not work a minute more than 11 hours a day, and he cant force me too, so i will make the suggestion to him just to pay me off at the end of April ,leaving my free to start my new job in May...fingers crossed.
I also have to deal with the wksp manager in the meantime,all week he has been making remarks to me , telling me i am creating nothing but problems at work due to me being ill,calling me f*****g useless and blaming me for just about everything else,i have recorded 3 instances of this on my fone,he cant help himself so this has been easy,and i am am going to raise a formal grievance about this to the director on Monday.
I feel bad that the other guys i work with are being left to do the work but it is not my fault, my work dont or wont provide the staff to cover,it is not a small company , they employ over 150 staff,but have not arranged any cover , leaving 1 man to do on call all week himself and he is struggling now too.
My work obviously dont accept diabetes as an illness, or they dont care,so , when i go in on monday i want to go in prepared so could anyone direct me to useful information about this so i can print out and give to my employer on monday?
Thanks again
Colin

 

[catherinecherub]

This advocacy pack will help you and your manager should be facing a disciplinary hearing for harassment.

http://www.diabetes.org.uk/upload/How we help/Avocacy/Employment-advocacy-pack-2013.pdf

Another one which will have some parts that are relevant to you is this one.

A practical guide to employment adjustments for people with diabetes.
https://www.ntu.ac.uk/equality_diversity/document_uploads/92577.pdf

You need to stress about the long hours and the effect on your well being. If you have someone who is willing to attend the meeting with you then take them along as, although they will not be allowed to speak, unlike a union rep or similar, they can take notes and could be used as a witness if things escalate.

Hope this helps and am sure others will add to the list.

 

[AndBreathe]

The recordings on your phone are, frankly useless. They would never be admissible in an employment tribunal, unless the other party had consented to the recording before it was made. I suggest you stop doing that. It'll only be a source of frustration for yourself.

If you feel the need to have these things on record, then by all means type up a record of your recollection, but of course, that would be open to challenge in a courtroom scenario.

If you have another job lined up, I suggest you try to work your way through any notice period as amiably as you can, and leave without burning your bridges. It is all very well getting onto high dudgeon about these things (and your employer doesn't sound very altruistic or philanthropic), but you cannot control what he says about you once you have left. A reputation takes a lifetime to attain, but can be lost in moments.

That he is (in your view) a nasty piece of work, doesn't mean you should stop to his level for short-term, petty revenge. Do that, and you're edging towards his mentality.

You will feel better if you can retain your own integrity and know you have acted properly. I doubt you're the first who has been treated poorly, and I'm certain you won't be the last. Resist the temptation to go on crusade.

Of course, it's up to you..

Great news about the new job though.

 

[DeejayR]

I suggest you try to work your way through any notice period as amiably as you can, and leave without burning your bridges ... You will feel better if you can retain your own integrity and know you have acted properly.

Agree. All but one of the jobs I ever had were terminated by redundancy or "rationalisation". I learned that if I did my best for the last few weeks I left with a clear conscience and no bad karma to follow me to the next job. Keep focused on where you're going, not the bad stuff going on around you.
Good luck in the new job.

 

[catherinecherub]

I don't think that @colmc555 want's revenge as such but to make it clear that his treatment has been an eye opener into what some firms will do even though there are laws in place.
At least he is trying to make sure that no other diabetic has to go through the stress that he has endured.

 

[Spencer67]

Hi guys,
First of all, thank you for all your help and advice and for taking the time to read my long winded posts.
Just a wee update,
Thats me been off my on call for 2 weeks now , so i have had plenty of rest and the you would not believe the change in how i feel,my bloods have settled down ,i dont feel ill anymore , my stomach problems are starting to clear up too ,thanks to eating the right things at the right time.Its amazing the difference 2 weeks can make.,
I have good news on the job front too, i bumped into an old boss yesterday and within 5 minutes have secured myself another job starting in May, its with a removal company with whom i worked for for 8 years and left on good terms ,so plenty of exercise at work again can only be a good thing.
The only problems now is waiting,I will not go back to working all day and night for my current employer ,my health is more important , but i know when i tell him this he will send me home sick , which i cant afford, so my plan is to tell him i am available for all duties now, however I will not break the law , therefore i will not work a minute more than 11 hours a day, and he cant force me too, so i will make the suggestion to him just to pay me off at the end of April ,leaving my free to start my new job in May...fingers crossed.
I also have to deal with the wksp manager in the meantime,all week he has been making remarks to me , telling me i am creating nothing but problems at work due to me being ill,calling me f*****g useless and blaming me for just about everything else,i have recorded 3 instances of this on my fone,he cant help himself so this has been easy,and i am am going to raise a formal grievance about this to the director on Monday.
I feel bad that the other guys i work with are being left to do the work but it is not my fault, my work dont or wont provide the staff to cover,it is not a small company , they employ over 150 staff,but have not arranged any cover , leaving 1 man to do on call all week himself and he is struggling now too.
My work obviously dont accept diabetes as an illness, or they dont care,so , when i go in on monday i want to go in prepared so could anyone direct me to useful information about this so i can print out and give to my employer on monday?
Thanks again
Colin

Sounds like you have made a good chess move, well done mate with securing a new job, maybe you could use this leverage to get a wage rise instead of leaving they may pap themselves, at the end of the day you are a hard worker and hardworkers like you are hard to come by, you have drawn the ball entirely into your court, now smash it back for game set and match. you need to get a big pole and shove it up the wksp managers a**** before you leave though imo. keep us updated on the events, its interesting to see how it pans out and is a good thread for others in similar circumstances. well done, all kudos to you.

I'd wack the Employment-advocacy-pack-2013, that cath suggested, on the table with lots of yellow highlights, those guys need to be brought bang upto date with the 21st century they sound like 19th century mill owners.

 

[denbo]

After previous good advice , I once again am at a dead end.I work as a recovery/breakdown truck driver and have been getting ill a lot recently.After losing contracts at my work we have lost some staff members but our workload for some reason has increased.I work 12 days on and 2 off , 9 hour shifts , but as we are busy most days ,it becomes 12 hour shifts plus on call at night.
I have also had issues getting protective equipment from my work,as a result i have been working in wet, freezing conditions with a pair of overalls to protect me, as a result i have had heavy colds and constant flare ups of IBS and diverticulitis(i have previously had part of my bowel removed as a result of this ).My doctor thinks my body is just really run down because of the conditions i have been working under all winter.
I am not the type of guy to complain but my wife forced me into doing something about it.I got a fit note from my doctor saying i would benefit from reduced hours ie no overtime and no on call for 4 weeks to try and let my body rest.
I had to take a couple of days off last week as i had a really bad cold and felt really run down .The previous week i had seen a box of equipment delivered,( i open up the workshop in the mornings and had a wee nosey around) and was told by a couple of people that the waterproofs were in.I asked on Friday if i could get some as it was to be a wet and cold weekend,I was told by the wksp manager and storeman they hadn't arrived yet,so I worked all weekend getting soaked and ended up monday morning with a nasty cold.I told the storeman i was making a complaint and miraculously the equipment arrived an hour later.
On my return to work people were acting a bit strange .and I had a meeting with the managing director to explain the situation regarding my health,I had taken advice from my doctor and an occupational health nurse beforehand.I told him i was really struggling to control my diabetes and had been ill a lot with other things related to it.I told him it was because of the long hours(93 one week) and the lack of equipment,I was expecting him to discuss how we could sort it out as all the guys in the department were finding it too hard also,WRONG...He went, ballistic blaming me for not following company procedures regarding equipment ,although i did...twice...and said as i was not able to do overtime and on call that i was no use to him and told me he was sending me home.
After a heated discussion where he told me that his company handbook over rules Health and Safety laws ,and me telling him i was fit to do my job,just needed a bit of time for rest we agreed to me working this week and reviewing it next week.The way he put it ,if i am not back to doing overtime etc from next week then I am no good to him and basically he would have to let me go.
I looked into this and I read that my employer should make reasonable adjustments short term if my health suffering,but long term and if it affects his business then he can "let me go"
I have always been a hard worker and have only previously had 1 day off sick in the past 2 and a half years,I have given up my days off to help out recovery and other departments when they were busy and have often went in at all hours after a phone call on my time off.
I have spoken to DVSA regarding my hours and as we lost the contract to do the police work ,we are no longer exempt from certain laws regarding hours and rest etc,and that now if i work a minute over 11 hours a day then i am breaking the law.I am working under GB domestic rules as opposed to Working time directive and the rules are slightly different for me.It turns out we have been breaking the law on our working hours for a while but as the rules are very confusing we were not fully aware of this.
I really don't want to have to take this matter further as i don't have the strength just now for a battle,I have been looking for another job also but nothing has come up yet so i am stuck here for now,I cannot afford to take any more time off sick but i know if i tell my boss next week that i still need more time to recover he will send me home sick.I am meant to have 2 weeks holiday at the end of next week but if i am sent home sick I wont get paid for them.
I feel like my work has hired me , run me into the ground,and now they want rid of me,at no point has anyone asked how i am feeling ,all they want to know is how much longer this will take.A little birdy told me they overheard management saying basically that am now useless and just to get shot of me,but he wont make a statement on this because of his position in the company.
I cant afford a lawyer as my wife and i have spent all our savings on treatment to enable us to have a child.I am on anti depressants too as i feel run down and miserable all the time.
Sorry for this being long winded , I was advised to do this by a good friend of mine,so I dont know if there is anyone out there with legal knowledge on this that could maybe give me 5 minutes free advice..I am stuck here and just really dont know how to get out of it.
Thanks for taking the time to read...

This is very unfair ov yr boss I think they don't av diabetes so don't understand it I can't do nights due to bein type 2but I'm in insulin as it mucks up yr blood sugars and even if yr not a diabetic it messes yr blood sugars about and u say bout yr hols if yr off sick and were Avin 2weeks hols u should save them and av them another time tney shud b more understanding with you aswell

 

[RuthW]

Hi guys,
First of all, thank you for all your help and advice and for taking the time to read my long winded posts.
Just a wee update,
Thats me been off my on call for 2 weeks now , so i have had plenty of rest and the you would not believe the change in how i feel,my bloods have settled down ,i dont feel ill anymore , my stomach problems are starting to clear up too ,thanks to eating the right things at the right time.Its amazing the difference 2 weeks can make.,
I have good news on the job front too, i bumped into an old boss yesterday and within 5 minutes have secured myself another job starting in May, its with a removal company with whom i worked for for 8 years and left on good terms ,so plenty of exercise at work again can only be a good thing.
The only problems now is waiting,I will not go back to working all day and night for my current employer ,my health is more important , but i know when i tell him this he will send me home sick , which i cant afford, so my plan is to tell him i am available for all duties now, however I will not break the law , therefore i will not work a minute more than 11 hours a day, and he cant force me too, so i will make the suggestion to him just to pay me off at the end of April ,leaving my free to start my new job in May...fingers crossed.
I also have to deal with the wksp manager in the meantime,all week he has been making remarks to me , telling me i am creating nothing but problems at work due to me being ill,calling me f*****g useless and blaming me for just about everything else,i have recorded 3 instances of this on my fone,he cant help himself so this has been easy,and i am am going to raise a formal grievance about this to the director on Monday.
I feel bad that the other guys i work with are being left to do the work but it is not my fault, my work dont or wont provide the staff to cover,it is not a small company , they employ over 150 staff,but have not arranged any cover , leaving 1 man to do on call all week himself and he is struggling now too.
My work obviously dont accept diabetes as an illness, or they dont care,so , when i go in on monday i want to go in prepared so could anyone direct me to useful information about this so i can print out and give to my employer on monday?
Thanks again
Colin

I think your strategy of getting them to pay you off is the best one. Two other points: there is such a thing as "constructive dismissal" which you can take to an employment tribunal. That means that they are deliberately making your working conditions impossible to force you to resign. You can potentially win a tribunal on that. Just going to the tribunal would cost them a packet, whereas you can represent yourself so they will want to settle with you and fast. Second, you can join a union at this point, and they would give you advice. I know you don't want to but you can. If I were you I would go for an agreed leaving date - don't mention the new job because that would mean less comp from the IT so they won't swallow it. Only pull out the disability rights and constructive dismissal if they don't bite.

 

[AndBreathe]

I think your strategy of getting them to pay you off is the best one. Two other points: there is such a thing as "constructive dismissal" which you can take to an employment tribunal. That means that they are deliberately making your working conditions impossible to force you to resign. You can potentially win a tribunal on that. Just going to the tribunal would cost them a packet, whereas you can represent yourself so they will want to settle with you and fast. Second, you can join a union at this point, and they would give you advice. I know you don't want to but you can. If I were you I would go for an agreed leaving date - don't mention the new job because that would mean less comp from the IT so they won't swallow it. Only pull out the disability rights and constructive dismissal if they don't bite.

Anyone who has been to an Employment Tribunal, in any capacity (Last time I was there, I was there as the appellant's appeal hearing Manager - having upheld his initial dismissal), will know it isn't something to embark on lightly. It isnt a freebie - up to £1200, out of your personal pocket, to go to hearing, as I understand it.

Some people may want their day in court, but it's no rose garden.

"We" won the case I refer to, but I was on the witness stand for a whole day, with the appellants barrister show-boating the whole way. That was reflected in the Judge's judgement document, but it was extremely stressful all the same. And the appellant was eventually required to pay his former employers costs. Our Barristers court day rate was £2500 a day, for the 3 day case, plus reading in time. Plus his own barrister, plus his own solicitor. My employer didn't require he paid my salary, travel or hotel bills or any HR costs, so it could be said he got off lightly.

Think carefully before going down that route. There's more to life than a bit of compensation. You have your life to lead, and a family to play an active part in, I am assuming. I'd suggest move forward as stress-freely as you can and get on with your life. Showing this employer for what he really appears to be is a very noble concept, but you are neither crusader nor martyr, I'd wager.

 

[DeejayR]

I think the choices have been very well put in this thread. All roads are possible, but the decision can only be Colin's. I support him whatever he does, and hope for a good solution.

 

[JTL]

I would secretly record whatever you can.
No it isn't admisible in court but you can play it to a solicitor a union rep the managing director or the janitor ... anyone you think who might help once they actually hear the shocking way you're being treated.
At least you can see a way out ahead now so something positive for you to look forward to.

 

[RuthW]

"Anyone who's been to an Employment Tribunal..." Well, that's my point. Try to settle first and if that doesn't work, go for the tribunal, and you can still settle before it starts. I know because I did it. I got six months salary, and it wasn't very stressful. And I even ended up on good terms with my ex-employer. I was invited to lunch a few times by the boss later.

 

[RuthW]

I would secretly record whatever you can.
No it isn't admisible in court but you can play it to a solicitor a union rep the managing director or the janitor ... anyone you think who might help once they actually hear the shocking way you're being treated.
At least you can see a way out ahead now so something positive for you to look forward to.

A tribunal is not the same as a criminal court anyway. There are different standards of evidence, so recordings might be admissible. I think the OP is in the UK, not the US, isn't he?

 

[AndBreathe]

A tribunal is not the same as a criminal court anyway. There are different standards of evidence, so recordings might be admissible. I think the OP is in the UK, not the US, isn't he?

Recordings are only admissible at an ET if all parties know the recording is taking place, at the time it is taking place.

I was required to reject recordings during my hearing the appeal, and the ET judge did the same in the courtroom.

Much of what transpires in an ET is based on what is "reasonableness", although underpinned and over-ridden by the standards of law.

 

[RuthW]

Recordings are only admissible at an ET if all parties know the recording is taking place, at the time it is taking place.

I was required to reject recordings during my hearing the appeal, and the ET judge did the same in the courtroom.

Much of what transpires in an ET is based on what is "reasonableness", although underpinned and over-ridden by the standards of law.

Oh, ok, didn't know that.

 

[Spiker]

I think you got a good outcome from a bad situation there. When a job goes bad it's no good fighting the system, it's best to move on. So you have a company that will be glad to have you and value you, and you are well off out of there. If you can get some money off them on the way out the door, so much the better. But I would advise not to go to a tribunal and not to threaten too much. It is a small world and if you get a reputation as a stirrer, regardless of the merits of your case, it could work against you. A tribunal is a huge distraction and in the end the money you get is unlikely to justify the time and aggro. If they make you an offer, maybe with a little pressure on your part, so be it. Otherwise, move on and be grateful your health has returned and you have a new, good employer. Well played sir.

 

[Scouser58]

After previous good advice , I once again am at a dead end.I work as a recovery/breakdown truck driver and have been getting ill a lot recently.After losing contracts at my work we have lost some staff members but our workload for some reason has increased.I work 12 days on and 2 off , 9 hour shifts , but as we are busy most days ,it becomes 12 hour shifts plus on call at night.
I have also had issues getting protective equipment from my work,as a result i have been working in wet, freezing conditions with a pair of overalls to protect me, as a result i have had heavy colds and constant flare ups of IBS and diverticulitis(i have previously had part of my bowel removed as a result of this ).My doctor thinks my body is just really run down because of the conditions i have been working under all winter.
I am not the type of guy to complain but my wife forced me into doing something about it.I got a fit note from my doctor saying i would benefit from reduced hours ie no overtime and no on call for 4 weeks to try and let my body rest.
I had to take a couple of days off last week as i had a really bad cold and felt really run down .The previous week i had seen a box of equipment delivered,( i open up the workshop in the mornings and had a wee nosey around) and was told by a couple of people that the waterproofs were in.I asked on Friday if i could get some as it was to be a wet and cold weekend,I was told by the wksp manager and storeman they hadn't arrived yet,so I worked all weekend getting soaked and ended up monday morning with a nasty cold.I told the storeman i was making a complaint and miraculously the equipment arrived an hour later.
On my return to work people were acting a bit strange .and I had a meeting with the managing director to explain the situation regarding my health,I had taken advice from my doctor and an occupational health nurse beforehand.I told him i was really struggling to control my diabetes and had been ill a lot with other things related to it.I told him it was because of the long hours(93 one week) and the lack of equipment,I was expecting him to discuss how we could sort it out as all the guys in the department were finding it too hard also,WRONG...He went, ballistic blaming me for not following company procedures regarding equipment ,although i did...twice...and said as i was not able to do overtime and on call that i was no use to him and told me he was sending me home.
After a heated discussion where he told me that his company handbook over rules Health and Safety laws ,and me telling him i was fit to do my job,just needed a bit of time for rest we agreed to me working this week and reviewing it next week.The way he put it ,if i am not back to doing overtime etc from next week then I am no good to him and basically he would have to let me go.
I looked into this and I read that my employer should make reasonable adjustments short term if my health suffering,but long term and if it affects his business then he can "let me go"
I have always been a hard worker and have only previously had 1 day off sick in the past 2 and a half years,I have given up my days off to help out recovery and other departments when they were busy and have often went in at all hours after a phone call on my time off.
I have spoken to DVSA regarding my hours and as we lost the contract to do the police work ,we are no longer exempt from certain laws regarding hours and rest etc,and that now if i work a minute over 11 hours a day then i am breaking the law.I am working under GB domestic rules as opposed to Working time directive and the rules are slightly different for me.It turns out we have been breaking the law on our working hours for a while but as the rules are very confusing we were not fully aware of this.
I really don't want to have to take this matter further as i don't have the strength just now for a battle,I have been looking for another job also but nothing has come up yet so i am stuck here for now,I cannot afford to take any more time off sick but i know if i tell my boss next week that i still need more time to recover he will send me home sick.I am meant to have 2 weeks holiday at the end of next week but if i am sent home sick I wont get paid for them.
I feel like my work has hired me , run me into the ground,and now they want rid of me,at no point has anyone asked how i am feeling ,all they want to know is how much longer this will take.A little birdy told me they overheard management saying basically that am now useless and just to get shot of me,but he wont make a statement on this because of his position in the company.
I cant afford a lawyer as my wife and i have spent all our savings on treatment to enable us to have a child.I am on anti depressants too as i feel run down and miserable all the time.
Sorry for this being long winded , I was advised to do this by a good friend of mine,so I dont know if there is anyone out there with legal knowledge on this that could maybe give me 5 minutes free advice..I am stuck here and just really dont know how to get out of it.
Thanks for taking the time to read...

Hello colmc555, Hello I have just read your post and I am totally horrified that your working conditions are so appalling.

The one line about their company handbook over rules Health and Safety Laws???
This I found very surprising, as they set the law to protect the people in the work place. have you talked with them???

The lack of wet weather clothing, this comes under the PPE, = Personal Protective Equipment, and the waterproofs are the main part of out door bad weather requirements. So I would have thought that expecting you to work 'soaking wet' on many call outs is breaking HSE Laws, ie, they are Not looking after your Health (constant wet, then coldness), Safety (Protecting your body and are these waterproofs of the High Viz type ie Bright Yellow or Bright Orange?) You should not be working in the dark, poor light or on the motorways/main roads when not wearing this essential equipment?!?

It would seem that the ballistic man in the office is putting profits and the healthy bottom line, ahead of employee Health ans Safety Laws. I wonder how ballistic he would be if one of the employees had a bad experience while out on a call out, sorting out a vehicle? what would he say/do then..... blame the member of staff for not doing the things, even when there is shortages and bad working conditions, who would keep stum then.
Have you ever considered joining a union to protest you and your working conditions and to make management tow the HSE line? protect working hours and rest days?

colmc we are all here to listen to you, all diabetics need to stay together, well for now ttfn from Karen.

 

[moonchip]

No one should ever need to 'negotiate' not doing overtime - it is voluntary not mandatory and any contract which stipulates overtime must be worked on a regular basis is illegal.

I would strongly advocate anyone in this position to join a Union

Expecting anyone to work 'soaking wet' without the correct PPE (provided by the employer) is a breach of contract on the employers part, breaching Section 7 H&S law and also the employers responsibility towards their employee as a duty of care.

In the past, when faced with a bully boss, I recorded the threats & verbal outlashes then made it known to him that I had done so, even playing him back a segment. As a bully & ignorant of the law I "scared him sh*tless" and left him in no doubt as to the limited future he faced and his delicate legal position regarding criminal procedings ......

..... he became ever so courteous in his dealings with me thereafter. Ignorance is a marvellous thing when used against an idiot

 

[JTL]

Never argue with an idiot they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.