Eating High Carb Low Fat, an alternative?

[tatterzombie]

So @tim2000s asked if I could make a topic discussing a high carb low fat diet for diabetes type 2 control.
A disclaimer up front: I am extremely bad at dieting.. Most of the time I can't keep dieting for longer than a month or two.. I have been overweight/obese for all my life so I have tried all kinds of diets calorie counting.. low carb.. low gi.. weight watchers.. At some point I always need that forbidden stuff and then I think oh f*** it and forget about the diet..
Right now I am 1.5 weeks into the Newcastle diet and doing really fine (doing a vegan version with ~100 gr carbs, ~80 gr protein, ~8 gr fat a day)

Now that this is out of the way..
I was diagnosed with diabetes September 2014 when my fasting blood glucose was 150 mg/dl (8.3 mmol/l). Doc had me repeat the test, I wanted to cheat and restricted my carbs the day before and the result was 130 mg/dl (7.2 mmol/l). I didn't do a ha1c test as at the time I was kind of low on iron (due to 3 months of bleeding) and according to him this would flaw the test. I was to take 1 Metformin pill a day (850 mg) and eat low carb and low fat..
On this 1 pill "normal" vegan way of eating I could eat 150 carbs a day and my fbg remained under 100 mg/dl (5.6 mmol/l)

Enter a few months later the low fat high carb diet (yes, I am finally writing about the stuff you were actually here to read)..
I went heavy on the carbs, a lot of them coming from fruit, no oil.. (300- 400 gr carbs a day)
FBG went higher in the beginning of this, I suppose I just shocked myself with so many carbs.. but they came down to under 100 mg/dl (5.6 mmol/dl) after two weeks. Unfortunately I cannot find my diary from this time right now. I suppose it would be much better to start slower with the carb introduction..
Three months later I had my hemoglobin a1c done still on 1 pill a day it was 5.3 (I think the units were mmol/l) which was well in the normal range.

In conclusion:
FBG fall way faster than the weight does on this way of eating..
You cannot immediately start eating 20 bananas a day or 1 kg of rice (if that is what you fancy ). This makes sense because according to the theory of the doctors who support this, diabetes type 2 is caused because insulin cannot do its work due to excess fat in the blood and around muscle cells. So it takes some time till no more fat from your food will lead to less fat in the blood stream..
Fat intake has to be really really low.. not the 30% fat low but the 10% fat low..

In the end, if you follow Dr Barnards suggestions for treating, "curing", diabetes type 2 this is still a form of calorie restriction through eating whole plant foods and almost no fat.. It makes eating too much almost impossible..
But as I said before.. fbg and post meal blood glucose readings normalize themselves way faster than the weight you drop might explain..

As for me.. soon after that a1c test I stopped the metformin and everything remained well.. till I got into my "stupid diabetes I will act as if you don't exist" phase and ate higher fat foods.. Still with all this I managed to keep my fbg in the prediabetic range for the past year on no pill, lot's of carbs and occasional binges on cookies, nuts and crisps..
Yes I am in no way somebody whose example you should follow..

Anyway, if you can take advice from somebody as flawed as I am.. and especially if you are vegan or thinking about it. Give it a try, high carb low fat is much nicer than having to think about whether you can fit one more cucumber into your carb allowance for the day.. (at least in my opinion )

 

[Enclave]

I would be far too hungry if I did not have any fats with my 20g of carbs a day ... As carbs do / did really spike my blood sugars. Everyone is different and pleased you found a way forward yourself

 

[zand]

I think HCLF can work, but possibly only for vegetarians. Meat eaters would be getting too much fat from the meats they consume to manage low enough fat. It is certainly the combination of too high carb and too high fat that causes the problem, so both LCHF and HCLF can work.

I prefer LCHF as it's difficult to know exactly how low is too low fat for any individual. I did a veg only diet for 7 weeks with very little fat and suffered with immense bone and joint pains. Obviously I wasn't getting enough fat. You can't go too low on carbs because they aren't absolutely necessary for our survival, the body simply learns to use protein and fat for energy instead.

So for me the choice is simple. Cut carbs to an amount where your BG's are at a normal level and increase fats to stop yourself from being hungry. Don't increase proteins a lot as the excess will be converted to glucose by the body and adversely affect your BG's. That's much simpler and healthier for me than HCLF, but then I'm not a vegan.

 

[SunnyExpat]

Congratulations so far, I hope the Newcastle diet performs well for you.

Originally, I went on a very low fat diet, it got my BG normalised, and I also shed a lot of weight over the period. No adverse effects.
It was calorie restricted, I still am.

But I eat more Mediterranean diet now, so a balance of all, just leaving out the high GI foods that I got out of the habit of eating initially. I think this would be an easy diet to follow as vegetarian, but obviously tweaked to suit personal needs and tolerances.

 

[Heretic1]

@tatterzombie
Thank you for an alternative view on LCHF - at last!
Does this mean there is possible credence in the NHS mantra of 'lose and maintain a good weight, eat a very healthy diet' .... Which does include a 'balanced' eat well plate????
Does this also mean that that HCPs do actually have some knowledge of what they are talking about - perhaps contrary to some views held in here?

Retreating to my trench, donning the body armour and await the 'incoming'!

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

Hi @tatterzombie and thank you for your interesting post. Your blood glucose results are great, well done. How has your weight loss been with this way of eating and what do you hope to achieve with the Newcastle that cannot be achieved through continuing with HCLF?

Hope your thread doesn't turn into a bun fight as it is interesting to read about other people's successes x

 

[zand]

@tatterzombie
Thank you for an alternative view on LCHF - at last!
Does this mean there is possible credence in the NHS mantra of 'lose and maintain a good weight, eat a very healthy diet' .... Which does include a 'balanced' eat well plate????
Does this also mean that that HCPs do actually have some knowledge of what they are talking about - perhaps contrary to some views held in here?

Retreating to my trench, donning the body armour and await the 'incoming'!

The 'lose and maintain a good weight' is the area that is a problem for some of us. It sounds so easy. No HCP has ever told me how to do this successfully. They just wrongly assumed that I have cheated on the various diets they have suggested. That's soul destroying when they just don't listen. LCHF has helped me lose 3 stones, but I am needing to pay for extra help ( a naturopath) to help me to understand my body so that I can lose the rest of my excess baggage. I can tell you that the eat well plate did not work for me, I continued to gain weight. The exercise I have tried didn't work either. Now I'm trying something new and will report back if I ever succeed in getting to my target weight. Don't hold your breath.

As I said earlier, I'm not totally against the HCLF view, I tried it until I could no longer bear the pain. The NHS low fat mantra is nowhere near low enough fat to be HCLF though, that's why I don't feel it's useful for T2's. The 'low fat' that the NHS guidelines talk about is more about low fat manufactured products. Whether you follow LCHF or HCLF choosing good, fresh, unprocessed natural ingredients and foods is the key.

 

[tim2000s]

Thanks @tatterzombie for posting this.

 

[Serena51]

It still comes down to eating to your meter. We are all individual and what spikes us is too.

 

[tatterzombie]

@zand I totally agree about the combination of fat and carbs being fatal.. half fat half carbs seems to be the magic formula that is irresistible to humans.. see: cookies, crisps, and the like.. It's not just the carbs it is the combination of carbs and fat..

So in my opinion you have to choose.. are you on the fat team or on the carb team.. I believe that both can work, you just have to find out which one you can keep up.

and you are right about the low fat studies.. it is the same as with the low carb studies.. it is very often not as low fat as hclf would have you eat.. nor are many low carb studies as low carb as hflc dictates..
So @Heretic1 when they tell you to eat low fat.. and healthy carbs.. they never tell you how low the fat really has to be.. which leads for the ones that actually follow these instructions to the downward spiral of too many carbs and fat and the need for ever growing medication..

@Avocado Sevenfold the weight loss on hclf was what people would like to see when they speak of healthy weight loss.. it was about 0.5 -1 kg per week.. I don't remember getting under 100 kg so maybe even less.. I think I lost 10 kg in those 3 months..

And I suppose that was not enough to motivate me to continue I gave up/in little by little.. I have a problem regarding food.. I don't understand the word moderation..
That is why I am trying the Newcastle diet right now.. I am hoping the claim that it can get rid of your diabetes is true therefore after that, at a little bit lower weight and perfect blood sugar readings I will have the motivation to not destroy this achievement and continue with hclf..
I also hope that 8 weeks of mostly shakes will help me reassess the food situation for myself.. I need to distance myself from it for a while..

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

@tatterzombie I find this thread interesting as before I became T2 I used to follow Slimming World and lost a power of weight on their veggie green days - high carb and low fat. Then my metabolism "broke" and I rebounded very badly due to insulin resistance. My eating was out of control and I genuinely thought I was going mad. This now makes me wary of carbs. I am vegan so still eat carbs obviously, but try to avoid the starchy ones as they make me bad tempered and sleepy <<<me

Good luck with the ND and please keep us nosey folk updated!

 

[Enclave]

Way back before my T2 I did have a high carb no fat diet for a while ... Think it lasted about 3 months before I was so ill I could hardy move ... My dr was delighted with my lower cholesterol... But then when the dr looked at my cholesterol history..it was never high to start with ! Thus proving not all heart attacks are caused by high cholesterol...
You must do what's right for you and your body ... I know the only way of eating that works for me is the LCHF ... I have my life back now after so many years of eating to the Drs advice ... Making myself more unwell than I could cope with.
The no fat diet was just raw, boiled and steamed fat free vegetables .....

 

[zand]

@tatterzombie (love the name btw) Thanks for starting this thread and particularly for discussing your 'human flaws'. I think many of us can identify with those. As someone else had said it would be good to hear your progress reports, you may well help others to find what's right for them.

 

[SunnyExpat]

@zand I totally agree about the combination of fat and carbs being fatal.. half fat half carbs seems to be the magic formula that is irresistible to humans.. see: cookies, crisps, and the like.. It's not just the carbs it is the combination of carbs and fat..

So in my opinion you have to choose.. are you on the fat team or on the carb team.. I believe that both can work, you just have to find out which one you can keep up.

and you are right about the low fat studies.. it is the same as with the low carb studies.. it is very often not as low fat as hclf would have you eat.. nor are many low carb studies as low carb as hflc dictates..
So @Heretic1 when they tell you to eat low fat.. and healthy carbs.. they never tell you how low the fat really has to be.. which leads for the ones that actually follow these instructions to the downward spiral of too many carbs and fat and the need for ever growing medication..

@Avocado Sevenfold the weight loss on hclf was what people would like to see when they speak of healthy weight loss.. it was about 0.5 -1 kg per week.. I don't remember getting under 100 kg so maybe even less.. I think I lost 10 kg in those 3 months..

And I suppose that was not enough to motivate me to continue I gave up/in little by little.. I have a problem regarding food.. I don't understand the word moderation..
That is why I am trying the Newcastle diet right now.. I am hoping the claim that it can get rid of your diabetes is true therefore after that, at a little bit lower weight and perfect blood sugar readings I will have the motivation to not destroy this achievement and continue with hclf..
I also hope that 8 weeks of mostly shakes will help me reassess the food situation for myself.. I need to distance myself from it for a while..

It's interesting when you speak about the 'moderation', as that was something I faced difficulty with.
The HCLF may be better suited for that, as the calorie density of fat doesn't work with that, whereas the lighter density of carbs does.
I tried a food only version of the Newcastle diet too, to the original higher carb ratios of the shakes, as you are doing.
It worked very well, and did seem to help reset the overeating.
But I found a schedule throughout the day helps, and portioning meals out so I know when to stop.
'Eating until your full' seems to be a disaster waiting to happen, but so far I've avoided it.
I think the other reassurance is, if we ever do fall off the wagon later down the road, we know we've done it once, so a very low calorie diet can be repeated, and with a very good chance of sticking the course again.

 

[tatterzombie]

Is there a place on this forum where one could keep a kind of diary about their progress?

 

[Worrierfrog]

I've been lchf for a year now and weight loss stalled. Yes I've tinkered with food exercise. Little difference. Now I'm reading How not to die after someone mentioned here...I've no idea what to do..if I decide to try plant based...after bacon eggs butter etc. Cheese.steak chicken salmon. Apparently all bad. So if I switch to nuts and berries haha yes I know veggies and the previously verboten fruit...after re also allowed..will it help lower fbs and help with weight? Has anyone switched midstream? ?
Any input on this would be appreciated. ..

Sent from my SM-N910V using Diabetes.co.uk Forum mobile app

 

[SunnyExpat]

Dairy, and saturated fat didn't suit me at all.
I would guess if you are going to try, you'll find an increase initially, as your body needs to adjust to the new ratio's of carbs and fat, until it all settles down again.

However, I've never tried it, as I am much more Mediterranean diet, and very much unsaturated fats.

 

[catherinecherub]

Is there a place on this forum where one could keep a kind of diary about their progress?

You could use the blogs? Provide a link in your signature.
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/blogs/

 

[tatterzombie]

@Worrierfrog don't worry (yes I know very bad pun.. I love your name though )

So the theory states that the reason one is insulin resistant isn't that there isn't enough insulin around (at least not as long as your pancreas is still ok) but that it cannot do it's work due to fat blocking the insulin receptors on cells.. (I am desperately looking for a video on youtube that explained it so well but I can't seem to find it again..)
This fat is either already living between your muscle cells or floating around in your blood stream.. The first kind of fat you get rid of by losing weight, the second kind of fat you get rid of by getting rid of the fat in your food..

I am of course no doctor but my guess after switching myself from a moderate fat diet to the high carb one is that you might panic. The fbg will probably go up (because there is still too much fat in the blood) and you will probably gain weight because low carb diets tend to deplete carb stores in muscles and carbs like to cling to 3 grams of water per 1 gram of carb..
But it will all normalize after a while..

So If I were you I would probably first eliminate fat from your current diet, add green vegetables, green beans, broccoli and the like and then start adding slowly "whole food" carbs, lentils, grains, fruit..

I still think that Dr Barnards book on reversing type 2 diabetes is worth a read if going the hclf way as it contains more information on diabetes (plus a sample diet if one likes that kind of things).
I really need to reread the chapter on diabetes in the how not to die book..

And one last thing.. if you go high carb, fat has to be as low as possible.. Flax seeds are ok in the beginning but I would wait with adding the hand full of nuts Dr Greger suggests at least 2-3 weeks and you are happy with your blood glucose readings.. The more fat the less carbs you can afford to eat till blood glucose starts acting up again..

If you try this, keep us updated..
I am so happy hclf isn't being immediately dismissed as impossible around here

 

[zand]

It's certainly not impossible, just more difficult for many of us. It's something I would consider again ( in the future) even though I am an ardent LCHFer. It's that balance between low enough fat and too little which is so hard to gauge. I suppose 2nd time round I will have the sense to increase fat when I get pains in my bones again. When diabetes isn't your only problem then it pays to look for alternatives which suit you personally. My weight has been at a standstill for far too long and that's why I need to do something different. Every single one of my blood tests have improved with LCHF, but the weight loss stalled at just over 3 stones. It's good to have options to work with.