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energy

Seems Fergus can fuel a 50 mile bike ride on a minimal carb fry up, I’m sure when he gets back off holiday he will explain some more.

For breakfast beforehand I ate 2 scrambled eggs, 2 rashers of bacon some mushrooms and a cup of tea with a splash of milk. Virtually no carbs in other words. I used 2 units of Humalog. My blood sugar was 4.2 when I left the house and 3.8 when I returned at lunchtime.

Medics often refer to the Krebs cycle which describes how foods are converted to energy in the body at a cellular level. Hans Krebs had assumed, as many people still do, that carbs are the main source of fuel for muscular energy. What he subsequently realised was that fat and protein also supply cellular energy and there was no reason to prefer carbs. I'm with him on that one.
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Graham
 
Those with a delicate stomach can always fry the eggs, Ally!

It's a great way to avoid the peaks and troughs usually encountered by the carbjunkies. :twisted:
 
Sorry if this is getting complicated, but we now have figures to work with.

Ally said:
But generally for athletes this is what is used!
Ian's calc from Ally's figs - For a 12 st 76 Kg person
3-5 hours exercise / week - 4-5g CHO/kg 340 g carb per day
1-2 hours /day - 5-7 g/kg 450 g carb per day
mod to heavy 7-12 g /kg 760 g carb per day
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IanD said:
ally5555 said:
Ian - that is for athletes - I said that because this topic asked the question - it wasnt really about diabetics.
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How many athletes do only 3-5 hours exercise per week :?: That is the amount (at least 1/2 hour per day) we are advised as a minimum to keep active & help our BS control. But not if we need your recommended daily 340 g carb to sustain 3-5 hours exercise.
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Ally said:
actually Ian you are right - dont know any but it is only a guide that is quoted by many.

Thank you for that admission, Ally. Presumably "somebody" said it & thereafter "everybody" quotes it, & the more often it is quoted the more it is believed. Like the NHS/DUK diabetes diet based on starchy carbs, which you also reject.

I became crippled with neuropathy on 340 g carb daily for 5 hours exercise per week. I can achieve 5 hours per week very comfortably on about 100 g carb daily, with about 20 g extra on days when I do 3 hours exercise.


most of the athletes I work with come into the middle group but I do have some who are training for up to 8 hours a day - mix of strength and aerobic.Maybe, BUT

What is your advice based on your experience with diabetics? - you can use me as a typical patient.
Should I treble my carb intake? (Don't be afraid to say "Yes" if that is you honest professional opinion - I won't sue you for dangerous advice.)
If a 76 Kg 70 year old diabetic came to you seeking advice to stay active, would you quote those a/m recommendations? Or would you stay with what you suggested before of about 30 g carb per hour during exercise?
That would mean on the days I play 2-3 hours tennis, I should eat around 260 g carb. (Your basic 200 g recommendation + 60 g, though we could reasonably assume that your basic 200 g allows for normal activity including exercise & therefore may not need supplementing.)
However I am very fit on half that.
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I've come into this very late in the day; but Ian - hats off to you for all that tennis; I hope I'm doing that when I'm your age :D

I used to row competitively, not as competitevely as Redgrave mind..., and found that different types of exercise had different effects; fairly gentle aerobic stuff like longer distance running seemed to deplete blood sugar and would often require a glucose tablet or 2 to get it back in line whereas hard heavy weights or sprint rowing would actually raise my blood sugars.

I think the thing is though that exercise is such a great boon to diabetics in its capacity to up the metabolism and reduce the amount of insulin needed so we should all do as much as possible; but we shouldn't confuse being able to eat more carbohydrates with needing to eat more.

Unless you are dealing with small percentage improvements in speed, strength and the like it's not really relevant - so unless we are competing at world class levels then there really is no need to eat extra carbohydrate. That doesn't mean that if running your 10k run and you think you are going hypo that you should just fall to the ground muttering "give me low carb or give me death", obviously you must take glucose...
 
Ian - the initial part of this thread was about athletes - and they are different to us mortals - they cannot compete without carbs. Cyclists who are competing in the Tour need refuelling during the race and they tend to use CHO drinks and gels and anything they can fit on their person!

I also do alot of work with athletes that are not world class - and they need extra carbs too. I have a few type 1 runers and they are eating a higher carb intake but testing a lot too!

I have read on another site that even Fergus needs dextrosol (I think) !
He has said before that his mates have needed extra carbs and he hasnt - that is often caused by not eating enough pre exercise.

Now as far as diabetics who are just like me, exercise to keep fit it just takes some extra planning and testing. I dont tend to use those tables but look at the exercies and work around it. There is alot of trial and error around it Ian - it really is not a very exact science!

Ian - those figures are intended for athletes who train alot - many are doing 4-8 hours a day. I have worked with many who do that and just getting enough food in is really hard - they are constantly eating.

Here is an example - a swimmer I worked with pre Athens - taking around 180g protein , carb requirements around 800g /day . 6 hours of training/day. Could not gain muscle mass and when I saw him he was only having half his carb requirement. Gradually inc CHO and started to build muscle - he must have been using protein for energy! he got to an olympic final and a few weeks later won a medal in the worlds! he would not have done that without carbs.

What we need to do here is not confuse the issue about athletes!

Good hearted debate tho !
 
ally5555 said:
Ian - the initial part of this thread was about athletes - and they are different to us mortals - they cannot compete without carbs. Cyclists who are competing in the Tour need refuelling during the race and they tend to use CHO drinks and gels and anything they can fit on their person!
Please now keep the discussion to diabetics keeping fit. That will be generally useful to us.

Now as far as diabetics who are just like me, exercise to keep fit it just takes some extra planning and testing. I dont tend to use those tables but look at the exercies and work around it. There is alot of trial and error around it Ian - it really is not a very exact science!

Ian - those figures are intended for athletes who train alot - many are doing 4-8 hours a day. I have worked with many who do that and just getting enough food in is really hard - they are constantly eating.

I have calculated & shown that those tables are not relevant to athletes who train a lot.
3-5 hours a week or 1-2 hours a day :!: That is just keeping fit, NOT training.


What we need to do here is not confuse the issue about athletes!

Do you endorse that table :?: I THINK IT IS DANGEROUS RUBBISH & WILL CAUSE TROUBLE FOR DIABETICS WHO FOLLOW IT.

It would be helpful to offer proper advice for the diabetic who wants to keep fit & active - like me. And who developed neuropathy using the carbs recommended for 3-5 hours per week.

Good hearted debate tho !
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It would be helpful to offer proper advice for the diabetic who wants to keep fit & active - like me. And who developed neuropathy using the carbs recommended for 3-5 hours per week.
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On these forums in recent weeks have been (just a selection, there are lots of examples)
Yourself, in your 70s, type 2 keeping fit by playing tennis
Myself 50s, type 1 ,not very disciplined :roll: so exercise can vary considerably from week to week running, hillwalking, pilates and swimming etc At the moment preparing for a half marathon in Sept.
A person training for an ironman (That's a 2.4-mile swim, 112-mile bike ride, and 26.2-mile run)
( I know of him from another forum, his carb intake is very high, but he has good bgl)
Young person BMI 21, type 1 exercising 'a lot'
Type 1, mid 30s cycling around 40 miles 3 or 4 times a week

At the other extreme.there are people just starting gentle exercise. This new exercise, because its may raise their heart rates quite quickly can cause just as many glucose level problems as more intensive exercise for fitter people.

All these people have very different needs and on forums no-one can give anymore than generalised suggestions from their personal or professional knowledge.People can accept and try the ideas or reject them as unsuitable for them

Even when a professional does know your individual medical history its not easy. I spent half an hour with a doctor yesterday, trying to sort out how to eliminate my hypos during and after exercise. I didn't know but my pump nurse had written to her concerned at the number and level of hypos I've been having recently. I'm lucky to have a doctor willing and able to take this time but all she can do is make suggestions its up to me to try them out. (though really I don't think shes come across someone whose bgl drops so fast as mine seems to do )
 
Ian - those tables are a guide - most athletes train at rate of intensity that would leave you and me behind - they are young too so yes the tables are relevant. However trawl the sports journals and you will find enough research to back up the amounts of carbs athletes are using. Most carbs are timed to training and performance, and the type of training they are doing. You are not listening Ian! This whole thread was not about diabetes and has also been trailed across some other diabetic forums by members on here! Do athletes need carbs - YES!!

I cannot give you individual advice but type 2s generally need to have some extra carbs either before or during exercise - depends for how long and what you are doing. Go and talk to a sports dietitian who has more knowledge that a dietitian who does not work in this field.
 
Ally, if I talked to a sports dietitian who used those tables as a guide, & followed her advice, my active life would soon be over - I HAVE PROVED IT - I HAVE SUFFERED. Also I have shown by calculation that the guidance table is spurious.

Can you give a link to other diabetic forums quote this thread?

It is useless to say "You are not listening Ian! This whole thread was not about diabetes" because this is a diabetes forum, & the OP was by a diabetic.

I have given time & attention to this issue because it is personal, & because we need sound advice, NOT dangerous tables that MUST NOT be used by diabetics who simply want to keep active.
 
Ian and Ally ,you have both made good points from different points of view. The original post was about carb intake in athletes so Ally has a point.Ian talks about carb intake in diabetics who are not so active so he also has a point.
Don't let this thread degenerate please!!
 
Ally
you know full well that proteins have the same number of Calories per gram as do carbs, about 4! and fats are double at about 9, So a high fat low carb diet can easily provide enough Calories. In fact packing in Calories is easier with fats, because of the lower volume. So 2 eggs scrambled in 1 ounce of butter, with some cream would give you near 700 Calories. You'd need 200g of Weetabix, or 700g of bananas to get to that.
I wonder which is easier on the stomach?
 
Hi everyone, I was the one who originally posted this thread, wow, seems to have really ran away and got heated in some places :shock:
Funny thing, no one actually answered my question at the time and now I have done the pre-grading there is more advice and contra-advice than you could shake a stick at and I am still none the wiser :?
I managed to fail my pre-grading but I'm pretty sure that it had nothing to do with carbs or lack of them :D and I did feel fine at the time :D
 
sue - thank you for your comments - was going to read the whole thing again - that saved me!!

Ian - i have told you before that for type 2 this is not the way to go - if required then I usually get people to test more and add in carbs as required . The vast majority need carbs pre exercise and alot during . None of us are in the same league as the guys i work with - maybe we were once lol. That is what I told you months ago.

Younger type 1 will need more carbs - I have a badminton international at the mo who is running very good bs on 430g CHO.

Hana - I take your point about calories but fat and protein for fuel during exercise are not tolerated very well - partly because the stomach motility slows down and absorption slows down. It usually makes people sick. I recently did some work at a female boot camp and the same thing was happening on the snacks of nuts and seeds!

Fuellling our athletes is not as simple as it sounds - it is a very complicated discipline. It is not just about eating - its type, timing, fluids etc. - all linked to training, competition, refuelling.
 
OK.
I'm no expert here but isn't there a huge difference between recreational exercise and elite athletes. Surely their conflicting requirements as regards dietary intake are never going to be the same ? I am sure that some will need high carbs and others low. I'm sure body type and mass also comes in to it. So I don't see that we can generalise here. Surely that is common sense.

This subject seems to be more about low carbers or high carbers and as the OP states, not answering the question asked ?

Can we try and answer the OP who is Diabetic ?

Ken.
 
chrisbel said:
Hi everyone, I was the one who originally posted this thread, wow, seems to have really ran away and got heated in some places :shock:
Funny thing, no one actually answered my question at the time and now I have done the pre-grading there is more advice and contra-advice than you could shake a stick at and I am still none the wiser :?
I managed to fail my pre-grading but I'm pretty sure that it had nothing to do with carbs or lack of them :D and I did feel fine at the time :D
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Latest from the OP.
 
You've already answered Ally better than any of us could manage, Chris. :oops:

chrisbel said:
Sort of answered my own question really, stayed with the low carbs and had a breakfast of sausage egg and bacon, took some brazil, pecan and almonds and drank plenty of water.
Did the pre-grading at 2 and came out hot, tired and very sweaty but with no ill affects my readings after 2hrs were 5.7 :D
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