EU - In or Out + Poll.

ickihun said:

I'm voting to LEAVE.
LEAVE because I need my government to work harder to secure a better deal for the uk.
They have been too comfortable attending and agreeing decisions which have no foresight nor change.
When was the last time the uk benefitted by being a member? If the membership is just a club for patting each other on the back. I want more for my children than just complacency!
This is our chance to make huge change. Change which benefits uk more!
Charity begins at home.
We are neglecting our own needs in case we upset our neighbours. Yes communicate and respect your neighbour but if your looking after their affairs more than your own. It has disaster written all over it.
When the EU membership started. It's intention was mainly for trade. So the uk could trade freely.
With the www. trade would exist regardless. We have outgrown the old fashioned trading face to face. Computers have made that unnecessary. E-mails have replaced letters. Accessibility wasn't there in the 70s.
Most people/organisation is on the www. They don't need permission from the EU membership otherwise how come other companies trade freely without being a member.

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With whom are your government going to secure a better deal with and how are they going to achieve that?
The last time the UK benefited from being a member of the EU, was probably today. With the 3.5 million jobs which are directly linked to the EU, the fact that 50% of our exports go to EU countries and we have good trade deals by being a member. Our environment is greatly improved by EU regulations. The EU is tacking the multi nationals on taxation, something our present government have showed no interest in. The EU has given us peace in Europe for a long time. EU law ensures equal pay for men and women and prohibits discrimination on the grounds of ethnicity or sexuality. Joining with other countries in the EU we also are in a better position to have our say in global talks. A lot of scientific research is funded by Europe, as many other things are.
If we don't safeguard our membership and the benefits of being in Europe, THEN we will be neglecting our own needs.

Charity, by its very definition does not begin at home, that is greed.

I think you misunderstand trade, before the EC free market, there were huge barriers to international trade, as I said above, 50% of our trade goes to Europe. When businesses lose 50% of their trade, jobs are lost, more businesses in the UK who rely on people having money in their pocket suffer and disappear when that happens.

tim2000s said:

@ickihun, as a mother, you benefitted directly from EU membership as you were able to get full, statutory maternity leave and pay that didn't depend on how long you had worked for a company. Prior to an EU directive that forced the UK to introduce this you had a roughly 50:50 chance of getting it dependent on time worked.

Trade isn't about using the web. It is about moving goods and services across country borders. In the EU where the majority of the single largest proportion of ours go (as detailed earlier) this is free. Out of the EU, our goods get tariffs applied when they get sent abroad, which makes them more expensive so typically fewer are bought.

Please explain what the "better deal for the UK is" that we need? I've heard this phrase many times and I don't understand how we get it by leaving.


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I didn't benefit from any maternity benefits. I missed out, twice. Due to ill health.

I expect mps and pm to negotiate with neighbours for fair trade. Even the uk need fair trade not just abroad.

In the recent past I needed to use imports and export regulations, for months.
We give tax relief on goods from poorer countries to help their economy. Who helps us with our huge deficit? Remember we are having cuts because the uk are in too much debt. Leaking money. Stop paying for the neighbours and sort your own affairs properly first. Then help the neighbours. Once our economy can afford its own needs then plenty for the neighbours.

I expect our government to make their own decisions and spend this countries money on putting the uk in a better functional state. The uk consists of more than the South.
I know because I've lived for 20+ years equally in both.
Never mind expanding to europe. Try expanding up north first. Please.
We are all in it together! REMEMBER.

Well, cutting what we spend on the EU will make next to no difference with regard to our government making decisions as to where they spend our money. The U.K. spends around £760bn annually. The decision as to where £751.5bn of that is spent is made by our government and not the EU.

That there are large swathes of the North of the U.K. with economic issues is not the EU's fault, and that £751.5bn could be spent differently to address that, after all, it is our elected representatives who make those decisions.

Fair trade is done initially under WTO rules (which won't be 10% tariffs whatever we may have been told) then trade treaties. Power in trade treaties comes from having either something special to sell or massive buying power. As an economy with a GDP of $2.6tn what buying power leverage do we have versus an economy with a GDP of $14tn? Equally, what unique goods and services can we sell that make it imperative to trade with us? Any trade treaty is a negotiation, and the best definition of a good negotiation is one where neither side comes out feeling like they have won.

In terms of expansion within the UK, there are significant parts of the financial services sector that have moved services to Birmingham and Manchester. It's not like this hasn't started. It's just been very late, and that's not a good thing. Most of our car manufacturing is in the midlands and northern England. Yes, those are the areas hit hardest by globalisation and the movement of manufacturing out of the U.K. but that is again the UK government's fault. Germany elected to invest in its manufacturing when the UK didn't and as a result has a very different economy shape. None of this was driven by being a member of the EU.

I'm sorry you missed out on maternity benefits. Had you been working at the time, you would still have been directly affected. If you were to have another child now (and you are working), you would be.


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KateA said:

With whom are your government going it.o secure a better deal with and how are they going to achieve that?
The last time the UK benefited from being a member of the EU, was probably today. With the 3.5 million jobs which are directly linked to the EU, the fact that 50% of our exports go to EU countries and we have good trade deals by being a member. Our environment is greatly improved by EU regulations. The EU is tacking the multi nationals on taxation, something our present government have showed no interest in. The EU has given us peace in Europe for a long time. EU law ensures equal pay for men and women and prohibits discrimination on the grounds of ethnicity or sexuality. Joining with other countries in the EU we also are in a better position to have our say in global talks. A lot of scientific research is funded by Europe, as many other things are.
If we don't safeguard our membership and the benefits of being in Europe, THEN we will be neglecting our own needs.

Charity, by its very definition does not begin at home, that is greed.

I think you misunderstand trade, before the EC free market, there were huge barriers to international trade, as I said above, 50% of our trade goes to Europe. When businesses lose 50% of their trade, jobs are lost, more businesses in the UK who rely on people having money in their pocket suffer and disappear when that happens.

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I expect our government to set decent wages and not wait for the EU to have to doit! Can our government not run our country without the EU ? Are we incapable? Are we too incompetent? I expect our government to do all the things we want from the EU. Everything.

ickihun said:

I expect our government to set decent wages and not wait for the EU to have to doit! Can our government not run our country without the EU ? Are we incapable? Are we too incompetent? I expect our government to do all the things we want from the EU. Everything.

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Our present government is not interested in doing this, and since you ask, I do think they are incompetent. Look upon the EU as a double lock mechanism to achieve this.

KateA said:

Our present government is not interested in doing this, and since you ask, I do think they are incompetent. Look upon the EU as a double lock mechanism to achieve this.

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I totally agree.
Shame on them having to have another governmental force doing their job, for them!
In the past I niavely thought that was the roll of the house of lords.
I know the law courts mop up a lot of mistakes and discrepancies.
So.... I guess you're right. We need the EU for a second opinion.

LaurenMoffitt said:

Just been invited to a youth debate at a local university in Tues. Organisers don't appear happy that I'm voting to stay in. I'm Wales based and lots of roads, community projects and education is funded by the EU!! Think its going to get very heated.

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Each to there own, One point I would pick up on the money that Welsh hill farmers get etc is in fact our money as it never leaves the UK, but the EU tell us what we should be spending so much of our money on, I don't think we need another body to tell us that. If we had a decent farming policy in the first place, I bet we could save a fair bit of what we spend at present, it just needs some joined up thinking, that all.

Lynbarn said:

Each to there own, One point I would pick up on the money that Welsh hill farmers get etc is in fact our money as it never leaves the UK, but the EU tell us what we should be spending so much of our money on, I don't think we need another body to tell us that. If we had a decent farming policy in the first place, I bet we could save a fair bit of what we spend at present, it just needs some joined up thinking, that all.

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You could also say that the money the UK government lose by not taxing the corporations is our money, and the EU is showing more willing to recoup that.

hankjam said:

and he is different from the rest of them, how?

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He changed, I meet him years ago at a student conference and he talked to us as one of the lads, but after he had gone to the EU he gave the impression that he was no longer interested.

tim2000s said:

@ickihun, as a mother, you benefitted directly from EU membership as you were able to get full, statutory maternity leave and pay that didn't depend on how long you had worked for a company. Prior to an EU directive that forced the UK to introduce this you had a roughly 50:50 chance of getting it dependent on time worked.

Trade isn't about using the web. It is about moving goods and services across country borders. In the EU where the majority of the single largest proportion of ours go (as detailed earlier) this is free. Out of the EU, our goods get tariffs applied when they get sent abroad, which makes them more expensive so typically fewer are bought.

Please explain what the "better deal for the UK is" that we need? I've heard this phrase many times and I don't understand how we get it by leaving.


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I will have a go at explaining it as I see it, when the old E.C.C. was set up we had trade barriers all over the place and the one thing that did happen was that these went once we joined, not over night but over time, and everything was find until we started to have financial problems in 2008/9 once that hit we still had to use up raw materials at precrash prices, once new higher costs started to come in that was when people lost there jobs.

To a large extent the EU is still in the mud, with only Germany, France and ourselves doing Ok, Germany is using up all her reserves to keep the EU project on track and they is why they need us to stay to help bale out the rest of the EU. Both sides had said we are the 5th largest economy in the World wow! right, the leave side have said that if we should leave then the likes of Germany are not going to put a trade barrier back in place between us and the rest of the EU since we buy more stuff from them they we sell to them, if say for instance they put 10% on all our goods we sell to the EU what do you think will happen over here? yes we shall put 10 or 20% on all New German and French and Italian cars that are imported do you think those manufactures would be happy with that? of course not, BMW, VW and all the rest would be banging on the doors of there governments to get them dropped.

The only advantage I can see is that we can freely import fruits and other goods from abound the world without having to pay for a club which has got to big and has lost its way.

in the scheme of things it does not look like a lot...
https://www.facebook.com/weareeurop...337495466806/1572784923022063/?type=3&theater

In the overall scheme of things @hankjam, it isn't.

For the man on the street though, £8.5bn is of course a huge amount, and no-one mentions the £760bn we spend annually as a country.

To put it in context, for someone earning £20,000 a year, it's the equivalent of them spending £200 a year on a subscription to a sports club.


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Some really good answers on here folks, the more I read and listen to it makes me wonder just how much difference it is going to make to us the people of the UK?

Reading in today's 'I' they are reporting that it is the rest of Europe which is holding its breath, it goes on to say, that almost everyone else is going to be worst of than us if we pull out? Have we as an Island become so inwardly looking that we don't consider other people any more?

This whole Referendum thing has become a joke, and has sunk British politics to an all time low. Thanks to Hankjam for the pie chart, as we all know figures can be manipulated to fit any argument, but it is interesting to see that we spend more money on foreign aid than we do on the EU.

Housing, Environment, business, industry and transport all have smaller amounts than I expected, You would think however that they must have seen this coming and would have spend more money on social housing, I do wonder how much of the welfare budgit goes on paying landlords rent for those people who should be in social housing if we had any?

Lynbarn said:

Some really good answers on here folks, the more I read and listen to it makes me wonder just how much difference it is going to make to us the people of the UK?

Reading in today's 'I' they are reporting that it is the rest of Europe which is holding its breath, it goes on to say, that almost everyone else is going to be worst of than us if we pull out? Have we as an Island become so inwardly looking that we don't consider other people any more?

This whole Referendum thing has become a joke, and has sunk British politics to an all time low. Thanks to Hankjam for the pie chart, as we all know figures can be manipulated to fit any argument, but it is interesting to see that we spend more money on foreign aid than we do on the EU.

Housing, Environment, business, industry and transport all have smaller amounts than I expected, You would think however that they must have seen this coming and would have spend more money on social housing, I do wonder how much of the welfare budgit goes on paying landlords rent for those people who should be in social housing if we had any?

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Benefits get paid to individuals these days....Not direct to landlords.....just thought I'd say, it's not relevant to the debate

Sable_Jan, worst decision ever by the Tories. Yes I know the rationale, but as I predicted it has simply lead to a massive increase in out of control rent debt and landlords switching off their willingness to rent to benefit recipients.

Why do public servants so often fail to listen to the pragmatic wisdom of the people?


Diagnosed 13/4/16: T2, no meds, HbA1c 53, FBG 12.6, Trigs 3.6, HDL .75, LDL 4.0, BP 169/95, BPM 85, 13st 8lbs, waist 34" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

16/6/16: FBG AV 4.6, Trigs 1.5, HDL 2.0, LDL 3.0, BP 112/68, BPM 6O, 11st 5lbs, waist 30", PWV 7.0. Lifelong migraines and hay fever gone.

Regime: 25g LCHF, run 1 mile daily, weekly fasting, occasionally longer fasts.

Lynbarn said:

Some really good answers on here folks, the more I read and listen to it makes me wonder just how much difference it is going to make to us the people of the UK?

Reading in today's 'I' they are reporting that it is the rest of Europe which is holding its breath, it goes on to say, that almost everyone else is going to be worst of than us if we pull out? Have we as an Island become so inwardly looking that we don't consider other people any more?

This whole Referendum thing has become a joke, and has sunk British politics to an all time low. Thanks to Hankjam for the pie chart, as we all know figures can be manipulated to fit any argument, but it is interesting to see that we spend more money on foreign aid than we do on the EU.

Housing, Environment, business, industry and transport all have smaller amounts than I expected, You would think however that they must have seen this coming and would have spend more money on social housing, I do wonder how much of the welfare budgit goes on paying landlords rent for those people who should be in social housing if we had any?

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I would say the whole housing market is just bonkers.
I was in my works canteen sitting with one new start and another who had been with us for 2 years. They were saying they were glad they were not leaving Uni now as it was so much harder to find a job today.. and they only left Uni three years ago..
Then we moved on to houses... they both agreed it would never happen...
and when I went for a mortgage 30 years ago the lenders could not throw enough money at us... we went for 28k and they still wanted to give us more... which way above our multiplier...
and successive governments have done ****** all to help. People just happy to lock up their money in bricks...

hankjam said:

.............. People just happy to lock up their money in bricks...

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Of course they are, with interest rates so low for so long the saver is really losing out. In the past they fluctuated so that both saver and borrower had times which favoured them and times which weren't so good. Not so now.

zand said:

with interest rates so low for so long

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That has been the real game changer, and means that Governments and Central Banks have no room for maneover nor ammunition left.

The Eurozone is on the brink, and close to collapse, if the UK leaves the EU then it could easily double the chances of that collapse happening soon.

The Deflationary Black Hole that will be put in motion will be unavoidable, and suck the UK and our economy in as well.

With zero interest rates and most of the debt owned by our Governments, what options do we have left ??

zand said:

Of course they are, with interest rates so low for so long the saver is really losing out. In the past they fluctuated so that both saver and borrower had times which favoured them and times which weren't so good. Not so now.

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While I understand it and might benefit from it myself, sooooo much money is locked up it is hardly surprising interest rates are so low... no one is spending like they did.
and I laugh when I hear about neg equity.... why should it always rise... I know, there are not enough houses in the desirable locations...

Sable_Jan said:

Benefits get paid to individuals these days....Not direct to landlords.....just thought I'd say, it's not relevant to the debate

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Some payments are made to landlords in certain circumstances.