So, your vote is an anti-Cameron vote?
So, your vote is an anti-Cameron vote?After the beating Cameron got last night by the audience and by Dimbleby, his waffled avoidance of answering questions about Turkey, his obvious panic, his misleading statements about social security benefits for immigrants, no way would I change my mind. He was totally mauled, and deservedly so. I was out, I am still out.
Except that that is simply untrue. We have had to change UK acts of parliament in response to WTO and NATO rules, not to mention The European Convention for Human Rights (which is not an EU treaty, let's be clear). It's far from the "Only" one,Yes but it's the only one dictating our lives through laws, trade regulations, etc.
So, your vote is an anti-Cameron vote?
The reason I want to leave the EU is one of principal as it is an undemocratic union with the Commissioners who are unelected making the real decisions
According to fullfact.org:-In terms of the export of goods, the following figures seem to be the most commonly arrived at:
In terms of Services, you get:
- 44% of the UK's exports go to the EU. Taking the Rotterdam factor out, it becomes 42%.
- 16% of the EU's exports come to the UK.
As a result there's a fair bit of imbalance in these numbers. While we consume more of their goods than they of ours, they consume more of our services than we of theirs, which is why there would be a very interesting negotiation that took place.
- 7.5% of services exported by the EU are consumed in the UK
- Approximately 38% of services exported by the UK are consumed by the EU
What I found most depressing about seeing David Cameron answer questions was the undisguised glee at some of the audience in vowing to vote Leave and therefore 'give Cameron one in the eye'.
That's true - I'm not disagreeing that. The point is that tariffs are encumbered on imports. So on a World Trade Organisation basis, 44% of our exports would be would be subject to tariffs on the EU side, whereas 16% of the EUs exports would have similar tariffs applied in the UK.According to fullfact.org:-
"The UK currently runs a large trade deficit with the rest of the EU. We imported about £60 billion more than we exported in 2014. The deficit has averaged about £40 billion in the past decade.
If the UK left the EU, the remaining EU would export more goods to the UK than anywhere else outside the bloc, if current shares remained similar.
This trade would be 16% of extra-EU goods exports, or around 3% of the value of the (remaining) EU economy."
In any case, my point was that the EU would still want to trade with the UK.
For me a lot of people are trying to over complicate
In many ways, India is very similar to the model of the US.India was a number of different and separate kingdoms before British (and French and Dutch) rule. It included what is now Pakistan and Bangladesh. What remained after partition now has a centralised government, but also with State governments.
There are some, eg Sikh seperatists, who would still want independence from India.
I'm afraid you misunderstood the thrust of my post. I did not wish to imply that what my Indian friend said to me years ago was a reflection of circumstances in Europe today, but rather to illustrate how yearnings for self-determination are rationalised. Maybe my original post should just have consisted of the first and last sentences.@holdfast India was a number of different and separate kingdoms before British (and French, Portuguese and Dutch) rule. It included what is now Pakistan and Bangladesh. What remained after partition now has a centralised government, but also with State governments.
There are some, eg Sikh seperatists, who would still want independence from India.
The UK being in the EU is different, we do have a say unlike India under colonialism. And we can veto or opt out of EU policies we don't like.
For me a lot of people are trying to over complicate the issue. I remember years ago talking to an Indian who had lived under the British Raj, seen the process of independence and seen the outcome. He said that whilst the administration of the Raj had generally been good, he would rather his country was run by Indians, albeit with some difficulties, than being subject to laws imposed by foreigners. In the end it was and is a question of sovereignty - regardless of the consequences.
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Yes I concur - you are over complicating the issue - as mentioned previously - my point was that the EU would still want to trade with the UK.That's true - I'm not disagreeing that. The point is that tariffs are encumbered on imports. So on a World Trade Organisation basis, 44% of our exports would be would be subject to tariffs on the EU side, whereas 16% of the EUs exports would have similar tariffs applied in the UK.
Likewise, Services, which are now the mainstay of our economy, and not goods, would see 38% of our exports being subjected to the tariff structure as opposed to 7.5% of the EUs.
Neither of these are currently taxed at source and thus would have an increased price within the EU.
It is this disparity that is the issue and drives a disproportionate effect, and not the absolute numbers relating to exports.
I'd disagree - they'd want to trade with the UK. I think that's a reasonable statement. The question is how important is that trade with the UK in future negotiations?Yes I concur - you are over complicating the issue - as mentioned previously - my point was that the EU would still want to trade with the UK.
Thanks for posting v helpful diagram.I want to see Cameron stop trying to scare me with fabricated guesses at how much more a holiday will cost etc, and stand in front of a graphic as below, and explain where we will sit if we actually vote to "Leave".
He said that whilst the administration of the Raj had generally been good, he would rather his country was run by Indians, albeit with some difficulties, than being subject to laws imposed by foreigners. In the end it was and is a question of sovereignty - regardless of the consequences.
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