EU - In or Out + Poll.

[tim2000s]

Here is a new question I wonder how many of those going to Glastonbury have bothered to vote before they went I hear it will be about 100,000 are going, I bet some one will complain if the vote is as close as that.

Yup. I'm going and I voted more than a week ago. The Glastonbury website has had a banner telling people to remember to register to postal vote for months and also proclaimed that the Eavis's would prefer an "Remain" vote.

 

[slip]

That depends on whether we stay in the single market in the same way we are now or whether we negotiate for change. If it stays the same we have now way of controlling it. I agree that non-EU immigration has to be addressed too.

And that is one reason we don't know what we're voting for! We have no idea what we'll be able to negotiate and what deals would be agreed upon - **** silly if you ask me!

 

[Dark Horse]

We hear lots about it in Australia and I have a question that someone might be able to answer: Does Boris really eat that much ice cream? Every time he is on our screens he eats from an ice cream cone then wipes his mouth with the back of his hand. It's not the same tape re-used because he has different flavours! He must be an ice cream addict, or is he making some point about UK-made ice cream?

No it a bog standard thing British politicians do this day and age, sadly along with having a photo


Hi Tim
I have read your reply and while that is correct do you honestly think that after this fiasco that Cameroon or the next PM would dare to have another referendum on any of those issues? I have come to the conclusion that I can't trust them to do the right thing of this country and I don't think we would get another chance on the matter.

After watching last nights BBC debate, I have also come to the conclusion that we have gone as far as we can with the EU in its current form, we can't deny the fact that some of the EU presidents want to have closer political ties and they do want to remove sovereignty by doing so. I have hear it said (a few years ago) that some in the EU want to replace NATO with a European Army and defence force. May be that would suit America to ditch it contributions to NATO but personally I think that would be a backward step at the moment as it would leave the UK, Germany and France, to pay the bills for such a defence force.

Personally I don't want to see a European defence force set up at the moment as I think that is the wrong way to go about it as we could end up like America and if say the French (who love a riot) went on to the streets to protest they could very well be facing the EU army with live bullets and not the French Police with CS gas or rubber bullets.

For me that is one step to far and I don't believe for one moment that should be allowed to happen, we wouldn't get the chance to veto something like that, they would be called in to action without our consent.

But while I have never been in trouble with the law there is one thing why I think we should vote out on, and that is our basic justice system, it was based on the face that you are Innocent until proven guilty, sadly as we have gone towards more EU integration, we have seen time and time again our Justice system sliding towards the opposite view of being guilty and you having to prove you are innocent. This is very much the European and former Empires way of doing things, you had little chance of proving you innocents at the French revolution without inditing other people.

I am also no fan of Sir Cliff Richards, but it now looks like his case is to be drop. Under EU law this is the norm. Once you are accused you have to prove you are innocent, unless they can find no evidence, but it now looks like we the TV license payer will have to pay the bill for the BBC's act of spying on his home at the time of the police raid. What happen to remaining Anonymous until being changed? I personal don't like the way our laws have changed in that respect and we need to do more to address the balance of this.

Personally I cannot see us changing the whole European legal system to our way of doing things, I understand that no one legal system is perfect, but I do feel ours is far better than anything else out there.[/QUOTE]


Dark Horse comment starts here:
A European army is unlikely but the UK could veto the idea if it remains in the EU.
http://infacts.org/mythbusts/uk-wont-dragged-eu-army/

 

[Catlady19]

It's well known that Lord Rothermere, owner of the DM supported Moseley and the British Union of Fascists. The DM ran a front page article headlined 'Hurrah for the Blackshirts'. They might not so openly support fascist groups now, but their politics are still well to the right, and their bias and racism still encourages the Far Right.

In your opinion - which you are obviously entitled to.
This discussion came about as I posted an article that appeared in the DM in response to what another user had been saying. Tim2000 then gave me the information provided about LR because he did not agree with what had been written (actually I don't think he even read it). I did not actually know about the DM supporting 'Moseley' as they happened 80 years ago (and have nothing to do with the EU debate) - long before I was born! I would not stop reading a newspaper article just because of something Lord Rothermere supported 80 years ago!
Did you know that books such as 'The Canterbury Tales', 'Alice in Wonderland', 'Animal Farm', 'Doctor Zhivago' and 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' have been banned in the past in various countries around the world? Luckily we do not live in a society that dictates which items of literature we can and cannot read.

 

[Lynbarn]

Hum OK I take it you are not saying which way you plan to vote, but it is interesting to see a leave campaign that tells us about a promise which could be broken and like I say I don't trust them.

If a CEO gets it wrong for his company they tend to fall on there sword and go, where as with a Politician if they get it wrong they tend to hang around and wait for the pips to squeak before they stand down or are removed, it is all very well wanting to server people and I would think that a majority of MP are like that, it only takes one to give them all a bad name.

I think there are more people on this list who will vote leave than admit to it on this debate.

 

[Lynbarn]

In your opinion - which you are obviously entitled to.
This discussion came about as I posted an article that appeared in the DM in response to what another user had been saying. Tim2000 then gave me the information provided about LR because he did not agree with what had been written (actually I don't think he even read it). I did not actually know about the DM supporting 'Moseley' as they happened 80 years ago (and have nothing to do with the EU debate) - long before I was born! I would not stop reading a newspaper article just because of something Lord Rothermere supported 80 years ago!
Did you know that books such as 'The Canterbury Tales', 'Alice in Wonderland', 'Animal Farm', 'Doctor Zhivago' and 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' have been banned in the past in various countries around the world? Luckily we do not live in a society that dictates which items of literature we can and cannot read.

A concern would be that a superstate with Germany at it's heart could ban more books it does not approve of and it is only one step away from bonfires of books.

I would be the first to hold my hand up and say I have not read enough books, but I am trying to make up for it now. One quote for now I may not agree with you views but I will dam well fight for you to have the right to say them.

 

[Prem51]

I disagree. Entirely different situation. The EEC was a completely different entity.

I know the Common Market/EEC was different. It's aim was to facilitate trade between European countries. I voted against being in it in the 1975 referendum as I thought it was just for the advantage of Big Business.
But how many countries in Europe do not want to be in the EU. Without googling the answer the only two I can think of are Norway and Switzerland. There might be other small entities like the Faroe Isles. But Norway and Switzerland have had to accept the EU's principle of free movement of people as a condition of doing business within the EU, but as non-members they have no influence on policy.

 

[Catlady19]

Whatever happens tomorrow thank you all for discussing this in a coherent way.

Yes, thank you @Dillinger. Thank you everyone who took part in our EU discussions.
Sadly, as has been said previously, whatever happens tomorrow around 30m people are going to be fed up by Friday morning!

Sorry if you are not religious but this has come to mind:
God, give me grace to accept with serenity
the things that cannot be changed,
Courage to change the things
which should be changed,
and the Wisdom to distinguish
the one from the other.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace,
Taking, as Jesus did,
This sinful world as it is,
Not as I would have it,
Trusting that You will make all things right,
If I surrender to Your will,
So that I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen

 

[Prem51]

Luckily we do not live in a society that dictates which items of literature we can and cannot read.

Perhaps it depends on how you define 'literature', but we do have laws which can ban publications on certain grounds - eg if it is deemed to be pornograpic, libellous, literature that promotes race hatred, and information that can threaten national security. I remember 'Spycatcher' by a former head of MI5 being banned in this country a few years ago, though it was available abroad.

 

[Prem51]

Yes, thank you @Catlady19
Sadly, as has been said previously, whatever happens tomorrow around 30m people are going to be fed up by Friday morning!

Sorry if you are not religious but this has come to mind:
God, give me grace to accept with serenity
the things that cannot be changed,
Courage to change the things
which should be changed,
and the Wisdom to distinguish
the one from the other.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace,
Taking, as Jesus did,
This sinful world as it is,
Not as I would have it,
Trusting that You will make all things right,
If I surrender to Your will,
So that I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen

@Catlady Well that is your only post in this thread that I have agreed with! :)
I hope whatever the result is that people will accept it and we can move on. Unfortunately I fear that won't be the case.

 

[Catlady19]

Perhaps it depends on how you define 'literature', but we do have laws which can ban publications on certain grounds - eg if it is deemed to be pornograpic, literature that promotes race hatred, and information can threaten national security. I remember 'Spycatcher' by a former head of MI5 being banned in this country a few years ago, though it was available abroad.

I will concede on Spycatcher - it was "banned in the UK 1985–1988 for revealing secrets. Wright was a former MI5 intelligence officer and his book was banned before it was even published in 1987" - he should have been beheaded for treason! Still, I reiterate my point that the DN is clearly not so "racist & facist" that it needs to be banned.

 

[tim2000s]

This discussion came about as I posted an article that appeared in the DM in response to what another user had been saying. Tim2000 then gave me the information provided about LR because he did not agree with what had been written (actually I don't think he even read it).

I hoped you'd think more of me than that.... The reason I derided that article was because the first 3/4 of it was about "Daily Mail Bad Stuff" before there was any mention of the "plucky british entrepeneur" and contained firstly the poisonous anti-immigrant rhetoric that has been at the heart of the DMs campaign and then decided that former entrepeneurs that had managed to build some astonishing businesses were "people who shouldn't be emulated or trusted as they are bad". It typifies the very "Ignore experts for they know nothing" attitude that has been ever present in the leave campaign throughout this disastrous mess. A large amount of the attitude that is nearly always present in Richard Littlejohn articles.

 

[Dark Horse]

The Vote Leave campaigners might end up being fed up even if they get their way. Imagine the News programmes for the next 2 years as all the minute details of the "leave negotiations' are reported. Then the in-depth reporting over the estimated next 8 years of trying to form new trade deals around the world. *Shudder*

 

[Catlady19]

The Vote Leave campaigners might end up being fed up even if they get their way. Imagine the News programmes for the next 2 years as all the minute details of the "leave negotiations' are reported. Then the in-depth reporting over the estimated next 8 years of trying to form new trade deals around the world. *Shudder*

Similarly, for everyone, image all the news articles where we find out Cameron has lied to us again and again and again and we find out we are stuck in the EU forever with its repercussions. *Double Shudder*

 

[Catlady19]

I hoped you'd think more of me than that....

I do - sorry, I take it back.

 

[Dark Horse]

Similarly, for everyone, image all the news articles where we find out Cameron has lied to us again and again and again and we find out we are stuck in the EU forever with its repercussions. *Double Shudder*

But we're not stuck in the EU forever - we could still leave at any time in the future.

 

[Catlady19]

But we're not stuck in the EU forever - we could still leave at any time in the future.

Yes but it has taken years to get a referendum as it is - the chances that they would let us have another one are very slim in my opinion (especially after all the pain we are all going through).

 

[Lynbarn]

The Vote Leave campaigners might end up being fed up even if they get their way. Imagine the News programmes for the next 2 years as all the minute details of the "leave negotiations' are reported. Then the in-depth reporting over the estimated next 8 years of trying to form new trade deals around the world. *Shudder*

You think it is going to be that bad? well how about we are going to hear more about America and the on going Middle East War, Religious intolerance, more protest's with in and outside of the EU one maybe two really bad disasters from around the world, A royal wedding or two, a couple of major company collapses here in the UK and from around the world, a major epidemic of global proportions, ET comes home, a huge drugs bust that has implications all the way up the chain of command and another 101 conspiratorial theories.

 

[tim2000s]

Yes but it has taken years to get a referendum as it is - the chances that they would let us have another one are very slim in my opinion (especially after all the pain we are all going through).

As we've said previously though, there are certain actions that, if taken by the EU, automatically trigger a referendum, enshrined in UK law. They don't have a choice of "letting us have another one", and if it was a case of a change of treaties, there would be a very different campaign.

 

[tim2000s]

I saw this quote and thought it rather appropriate for a diabetes forum.

"If your head says remain and your heart says leave, go with your head because it was made for thinking and your heart is just a pump!"


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