Exercise won't help you lose weight - article

[SunnyExpat]

I didn't think anyone was suggesting diet alone was fine. I thought the point being made was that losing weight by exercise alone is very difficult so it's best to combine it with diet. Obviously exercise has additional benefits apart from weight loss, and particularly relevant to type 2 diabetics is the improvements in insulin resistance and HbA1c.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[serenity648]

Low carbing tends to make you physiologically insulin resistant.

So, you low carb, and your body protects itself by shutting down normal pathways for your muscles to use glucose.
When you exercise, if you increase your heartrate, or sweat, or any other physiological sign of exertion, you naturally release glycogen stored in the liver. (Even low carb produces a store). You can't use it, so your BG spikes as your muscles don't use it as it was intended.

I don't low carb to that degree, as I want to use my liver.
If I miss a few meals, or work hard, or play hard, or exercise, I depend on my liver dump. I'm not insulin resistant, either physiologically or type 2 anymore, so I don't spike any more than a 'normal' person.
My BG doesn't dip, as my liver dumps, and it doesn't peak, as my muscles use it.

So, when I exercise, I can double, or treble, my resting heart rate, indeed, I try to, and my BG is better for it.

what level do you mean by low carb? 50g a day, 75g, 100g?
and what level of low carbing do you use so I can follow your example.

 

[SunnyExpat]

what level do you mean by low carb? 50g a day, 75g, 100g?
and what level of low carbing do you use so I can follow your example.

I'm a bad example for routine.

You need to find your own level, that fits in with your life.
I don't count carbs, I just eat to a calorie limit, but again, I do that by eye, rather than any measurement.
If I put on weight, I eat less for a while.
I have periods when I naturally don't eat many carbs, and I have periods when I eat more, it depends on where I am, and what food is available really. (If I'm out, food tends to be carby, if I'm in, I prefer fish, salad, and that sort of stuff).
But I do notice, if I do go low carb, the first carbs give me a bigger spike than the second meal, as my body adjusts back and to, but I've got used to that happening.

 

[serenity648]

I still dont know what level you mean by low carb, in your comments on its effect on insulin resistance during exercise. I dont know what your definition of low carb is so i can see if i am doing that level or not.

You said: Low carbing tends to make you physiologically insulin resistant.

I would like to know what amount of carbs you are referring to so I can be higher than that

 

[SunnyExpat]

I still dont know what level you mean by low carb, in your comments on its effect on insulin resistance during exercise. I dont know what your definition of low carb is so i can see if i am doing that level or not.

You said: Low carbing tends to make you physiologically insulin resistant.

I would like to know what amount of carbs you are referring to so I can be higher than that

It's usually the level that personally starts you into ketosis.
And it depends on your weight, build, and other things personal to you.

But if you are seeing a rise when exercising, the trade off will be against what you are like when you're not if you do decide to eat more carbs.
I don't count carbs, I don't have any set daily level.
I'm not in ketosis though.

 

[serenity648]

I

But if you are seeing a rise when exercising, the trade off will be against what you are like when you're not if you do decide to eat more carbs.

sorry, I simply dont understand, so will bow out until I have the back knowledge to understand all this.

 

[Brunneria]

sorry, I simply dont understand, so will bow out until I have the back knowledge to understand all this.

Hi,

I cannot see the other half of your conversation (because of the Ignore button), but I can hazard a guess that ketogenic physiological insulin resistance is being talked about?

If that is the case, it only happens when people are in long term ketosis, which is where they eat so few carbs a day that their body switches to using fat as fuel, rather than glucose. The switch happens at different points for different people. Some get into ketosis at 50g carbs a day, others at less than 20 g carbs a day, but once in ketosis, and adjusted to it (it can take weeks), people tend to have more energy, and more endurance. There are many endurance athletes who use ketosis nowadays, because they don't 'hit the wall' where their glucose energy reserves run out.

This is, of course, very different from normal low carb eating, and is usually referred to as Very low carb or keto eating. Calling it generically 'low carb' is rather misleading.

Physiological insulin resistance happens when people have been keto for weeks or months. Their baseline blood glucose rises a little. For me, it seems to rise by about 1mmol/l. This is often described by anti-low carbers as a bad thing, but there is no evidence for this, and it has done no one any recorded harm (I have looked for the evidence). I LIKE it. It protects me from any chance of hypos, and is a good indication of being in ketosis (fuelled by fat). No glucose hypers or hypos, no sleepiness after meals, no fatigue at all, really. Additionally, my HbA1c is lovely and low when I am in ketogenic physiological insulin resistance, so as far as I can see it is all good.

Something else you may find useful to know, is that when people exercise their insulin resistance often drops. Doesn't happen for an unfortunate 20% (approx) according to one of the few studies on the subject (I can look the link out, if you like), but for the rest of us, when we exercise enough hard enough and long enough (for me it is a brisk dog walk), our muscles become less insulin resistant. This means that more of the glucose can enter the muscle cells and get used. Have you ever had that feeling of warmth in your muscles after exercise and the sense of feeling goood? (before this exercise, I have a lot of insulin resistance, and asking my big muscles to do things like go upstairs, or walk fast makes my legs feel heavy and sluggish. Once the insulin resistance lowers, that feeling disappears and I feel the action takes less effort) That is what it feels like for me. Insulin resistance then stays lowered for a while post exercise, but the 'while' depends entirely on fitness, level of usual insulin resistance and activity levels, so how long is a piece of string?

Hope that helps.

 

[KevinPotts]

I always like the stark comparison from Phinney et al.....

Our bodies at best store the equivalent of 1600-2000 cal worth of Glucogen....

Our bodies, even with a lean athlete of just 10% body fat holds 40,000 cal of fat...

20 x more and in Ketosis your body can continue to access the fat store for days with no requirement to carb load


Sent from my iPad using DCUK Forum mobile app

 

[SunnyExpat]

I always like the stark comparison from Phinney et al.....

Our bodies at best store the equivalent of 1600-2000 cal worth of Glucogen....

Our bodies, even with a lean athlete of just 10% body fat holds 40,000 cal of fat...

20 x more and in Ketosis your body can continue to access the fat store for days with no requirement to carb load


Sent from my iPad using DCUK Forum mobile app

Possibly it's better for endurance, but different for cardio or resistance workout.
There was a good link from another thread, to a targeted ketogenic diet, which recognised the reality of 'hitting the wall', and formulated a strategy to overcome it.

http://ketogains.com/2015/10/the-ketogains-tkd-targeted-ketogenic-diet-protocol/

 

[KevinPotts]

Possibly it's better for endurance, but different for cardio or resistance workout.
There was a good link from another thread, to a targeted ketogenic diet, which recognised the reality of 'hitting the wall', and formulated a strategy to overcome it.

http://ketogains.com/2015/10/the-ketogains-tkd-targeted-ketogenic-diet-protocol/

Excellent that's a new differentiation and viewpoint....always learning


Diagnosed 13/4/16: T2, no meds, HbA1c 53, FBG 12.6, Trigs 3.6, HDL .75, LDL 4.0, BP 169/95, 13st 8lbs, waist 34" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

2/6/16: FBG AV 4.6, Trigs 1.5, HDL 2.0, LDL 3.0, BP 120/72, 11st 11lbs, waist 30" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

Regime: 20g LCHF, run 1 mile daily, weekly fasting.

5/6/16: Two BP readings now 112/64 & 112/66

 

[KevinPotts]

I do wonder about the impact on ketosis... The author says drop out is "transient" at best, but does not support that with anything Empirical.

I'll dig into this a little more.... Interesting


Diagnosed 13/4/16: T2, no meds, HbA1c 53, FBG 12.6, Trigs 3.6, HDL .75, LDL 4.0, BP 169/95, 13st 8lbs, waist 34" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

2/6/16: FBG AV 4.6, Trigs 1.5, HDL 2.0, LDL 3.0, BP 120/72, 11st 11lbs, waist 30" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

Regime: 20g LCHF, run 1 mile daily, weekly fasting.

5/6/16: Two BP readings now 112/64 & 112/66

 

[Brunneria]

I do wonder about the impact on ketosis... The author says drop out is "transient" at best, but does not support that with anything Empirical.

I'll dig into this a little more.... Interesting

Once you are fat adapted you slip easily forward and back across the 'keto line', rather like flipping the switch in a dual fuel car. Not even a stutter. So your body just scavenges any handy glucose floating in the blood, checks there are no glycogen stores to raid in the liver and big muscles, and then moves back to fat as fuel. Very smoothly.

 

[bobrobert]

Near where I live I see a guy who appears to be about 20 stones running and I wonder what benefit he gets? That amount of weight imo would put a strain on his heart. I don't obviously know if he is dieting. There is an old saying that you have to be fit to exercise. Exercise is generally good for you but if you don't cut down on the calories - eat a steak pie and chips afterwards - then you won't lose any weight???

 

[Totto]

A while back there was a similar article showing that age makes quite a difference.

Once you get past a certain age (40? 50?), exercise alone won't do it, but diet alone will. Although exercise is, of course, of great benefit in many ways. Sorry, haven't kept the link, and I have no memory of where it came from. I will flag @Totto because I believe she was involved in the discussion and may remember the article.

If anyone DOES have the link I would love to read the article/study again. And this time I WILL keep the link. I get rather tired of the Energiser Bunnies telling everyone that everything, including World Peace, can be solved by a good workout.

Sorry, no. I do know though that the Eat Less Run More myth has been buried alongside the Calorie In Calorie Out myth.

 

[SunnyExpat]

I do wonder about the impact on ketosis... The author says drop out is "transient" at best, but does not support that with anything Empirical.

I'll dig into this a little more.... Interesting


Diagnosed 13/4/16: T2, no meds, HbA1c 53, FBG 12.6, Trigs 3.6, HDL .75, LDL 4.0, BP 169/95, 13st 8lbs, waist 34" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

2/6/16: FBG AV 4.6, Trigs 1.5, HDL 2.0, LDL 3.0, BP 120/72, 11st 11lbs, waist 30" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

Regime: 20g LCHF, run 1 mile daily, weekly fasting.

5/6/16: Two BP readings now 112/64 & 112/66

It's a subject that's worth looking at, there are posters who believe any amount of carbs knock you out of ketosis, and have to go through the whole carb flu again, gut flora changes, certainly for a GTT you seem to need to prepare for days before, so I am open minded to all views.

However, if you start at the premise you need a set amount of carbs a day. (which many disagree with), and if you don't get them, you convert to ketones, it follows if you eat any carbs, you must use them, before switching to ketones, as the body is designed to run that way.
A properly functioning body can live for quite a while on any food group, and synthesises what it needs.
Protein converts easily to glucose, Fat is broken down by the liver into glycerol and fatty acid. The fatty acid is broken down further, into acetoacetate (which is eventually used by the brain) and the glycerol will be converted into glucose.
Hence even in ketosis, your usually have a store which can be quickly dumped when you need an energy boost. (And the liver dump in the morning).
And dumped when you exercise hard.
But, as it's now a precious resource, the body protects itself by trying to filter it away from the muscles, hence the insulance resistance builds up.

 

[bobrobert]

I still dont know what level you mean by low carb, in your comments on its effect on insulin resistance during exercise. I dont know what your definition of low carb is so i can see if i am doing that level or not.

You said: Low carbing tends to make you physiologically insulin resistant.

I would like to know what amount of carbs you are referring to so I can be higher than that

I'm a bad example for routine.

You need to find your own level, that fits in with your life.
I don't count carbs, I just eat to a calorie limit, but again, I do that by eye, rather than any measurement.
If I put on weight, I eat less for a while.
I have periods when I naturally don't eat many carbs, and I have periods when I eat more, it depends on where I am, and what food is available really. (If I'm out, food tends to be carby, if I'm in, I prefer fish, salad, and that sort of stuff).
But I do notice, if I do go low carb, the first carbs give me a bigger spike than the second meal, as my body adjusts back and to, but I've got used to that happening.

You don't count carbs and in other posts you state that high fat is bad for people. You certainly do things different from most members and I am not sure that you are coping well with the diabetes? I am also wondering if you should be handing out advice to other members?

 

[SunnyExpat]

You don't count carbs and in other posts you state that high fat is bad for people. You certainly do things different from most members and I am not sure that you are coping well with the diabetes? I am also wondering if you should be handing out advice to other members?

Thankfully, I have to be honest, your opinion doesn't really do much for me either.
Put me on ignore, you'll stress less.

 

[serenity648]

Hi,

I cannot see the other half of your conversation (because of the Ignore button), but I can hazard a guess that ketogenic physiological insulin resistance is being talked about?

If that is the case, it only happens when people are in long term ketosis, which is where they eat so few carbs a day that their body switches to using fat as fuel, rather than glucose. The switch happens at different points for different people. Some get into ketosis at 50g carbs a day, others at less than 20 g carbs a day, but once in ketosis, and adjusted to it (it can take weeks), people tend to have more energy, and more endurance. There are many endurance athletes who use ketosis nowadays, because they don't 'hit the wall' where their glucose energy reserves run out.

This is, of course, very different from normal low carb eating, and is usually referred to as Very low carb or keto eating. Calling it generically 'low carb' is rather misleading.

Physiological insulin resistance happens when people have been keto for weeks or months. Their baseline blood glucose rises a little. For me, it seems to rise by about 1mmol/l. This is often described by anti-low carbers as a bad thing, but there is no evidence for this, and it has done no one any recorded harm (I have looked for the evidence). I LIKE it. It protects me from any chance of hypos, and is a good indication of being in ketosis (fuelled by fat). No glucose hypers or hypos, no sleepiness after meals, no fatigue at all, really. Additionally, my HbA1c is lovely and low when I am in ketogenic physiological insulin resistance, so as far as I can see it is all good.

Something else you may find useful to know, is that when people exercise their insulin resistance often drops. Doesn't happen for an unfortunate 20% (approx) according to one of the few studies on the subject (I can look the link out, if you like), but for the rest of us, when we exercise enough hard enough and long enough (for me it is a brisk dog walk), our muscles become less insulin resistant. This means that more of the glucose can enter the muscle cells and get used. Have you ever had that feeling of warmth in your muscles after exercise and the sense of feeling goood? (before this exercise, I have a lot of insulin resistance, and asking my big muscles to do things like go upstairs, or walk fast makes my legs feel heavy and sluggish. Once the insulin resistance lowers, that feeling disappears and I feel the action takes less effort) That is what it feels like for me. Insulin resistance then stays lowered for a while post exercise, but the 'while' depends entirely on fitness, level of usual insulin resistance and activity levels, so how long is a piece of string?

Hope that helps.

the bit I was quoting sunnyexpat said: Low carbing tends to make you physiologically insulin resistant. No mention of ketogenic. I dont think I eat few enough carbs to be ketogenic. Sorry to be so thick. After the initial couple of weeks, I enjoy the swimming and walking i do and feel happier in myself afterwards. is that what you mean about it working against my insulin resisitance?

 

[Brunneria]

the bit I was quoting sunnyexpat said: Low carbing tends to make you physiologically insulin resistant. No mention of ketogenic. I dont think I eat few enough carbs to be ketogenic. Sorry to be so thick. After the initial couple of weeks, I enjoy the swimming and walking i do and feel happier in myself afterwards. is that what you mean about it working against my insulin resisitance?

You are not being thick!

A lot of things happen when we exercise, including release of endorphins, which make us feel happy. I was talking more about the feeling I get in my leg muscles, a kind of energised energeticness. Very different from the way I feel looking up a flight of stairs and knowing that my legs are heavy and it is going to take effort to get to the top.

Not everyone has enough insulin resistance to feel it the way I do, so you may not experience it as clearly as I do.

Another way of explaining it is that good warm glowing feeling you get in your muscles after a long winter walk.

I realise as I am writing this that I don't actually KNOW that this feeling I am describing is due to a lowering of insulin resistance. But I do know that if I have exercised enough to get this feeling, then my insulin resistance has dropped. This is clearly shown by my meter readings being lowered for a few hours, and my tolerance for carbs having improved for a few hours.

 

[SunnyExpat]

My muscles just ache.