Fat a lever or necessary

[HSSS]

can anyone point me to studies that show that dietary fat is not (or is) required to produce weight loss on a ketogenic diet. Human studies preferable over mice but any mammals accepted.

I thought body fat was just as good (assuming weight loss is desired) if not better.

Trying to understand the whole fat macro. I always have understood fat is fat for energy and if weight loss is a goal then body fat is where you want to burn it but dietary fat gets utilised first.

It’s the age old argument do you “need” dietary fats to produce ketones to burn fat ........

 

[Member496333]

My understanding is that dietary fat is only necessary in order to make the transition into ketosis faster and easier. After that the body should be well able to use all its own fat. I think you would still need to consume at least some dietary fat, but that would be hard not to do if eating an animal based ketogenic diet.

Obviously if you’re like me and had no weight to lose then dietary fat is absolutely critical.

 

[HSSS]

My understanding is that dietary fat is only necessary in order to make the transition into ketosis faster and easier. After that the body should be well able to use all its own fat. I think you would still need to consume at least some dietary fat, but that would be hard not to do if eating an animal based ketogenic diet.

Obviously if you’re like me and had no weight to lose then dietary fat is absolutely critical.

My understanding as well Jim. Just looking for evidence why we believe that. I’ve seen it but no idea where now

 

[Member496333]

My understanding as well Jim. Just looking for evidence why we believe that. I’ve seen it but no idea where now

Same. A great deal of my understanding comes from videos and podcasts. Although I have also read many books, I'm not one for links to online literature. Hopefully others will come along with more information.

 

[Robbity]

I don't believe that eating (extra) fat is actually necessary in order to lose it . I believe all that's required is a large enough deficit of fuel to force the body into burning stored fat, e.g. "starvation" ketosis rather than dietary ketosis. and that's how diets like the Newcastle work.

I assume there's a popular misconception that eating fat -> ketosis, and ketosis = burning fat, and burning fat -> weight loss, without considering where the fat actually comes from.

I certainly wasn't eating any extra fat in my early low carbing days when I ( somewhat unexpectedly!) lost a large amount of weight. This was after I'd simply been told to cut down on sugar, and then understood that all carbs were an issue, so although I was already eating some fat I'd not discovered LCHF as such.

Robbity

 

[HSSS]

I don't believe that eating (extra) fat is actually necessary in order to lose it . I believe all that's required is a large enough deficit of fuel to force the body into burning stored fat, e.g. "starvation" ketosis rather than dietary ketosis. and that's how diets like the Newcastle work.

I assume there's a popular misconception that eating fat -> ketosis, and ketosis = burning fat, and burning fat -> weight loss, without considering where the fat actually comes from.

I certainly wasn't eating any extra fat in my early low carbing days when I ( somewhat unexpectedly!) lost a large amount of weight. This was after I'd simply been told to cut down on sugar, and then understood that all carbs were an issue, so although I was already eating some fat I'd not discovered LCHF as such.

Robbity

Agreed. But I’m sure there are studies or evidence out there I can’t find them.

I’d like to share that facts (as opposed to it being just my opinion) with some others who are spreading the you must eat lots of extra fat in order to lose message, in my opinion erroneously and actually, potentially, hindering the losses.

 

[ianf0ster]

Agreed. But I’m sure there are studies or evidence out there I can’t find them.

I’d like to share that facts (as opposed to it being just my opinion) with some others who are spreading the you must eat lots of extra fat in order to lose message, in my opinion erroneously and actually, potentially, hindering the losses.

Hi HSS,
Sorry, I can't point to a study either. My personal experience is of being a TOFI and so trying to lose visceral fat and control my BG without consciously cutting down on calories. Thus As I cut carbs, I increased my fat intake to match, so I lost 10% of my weight after not being more than 2lbs overweight to start with.

Could I have theoretically done it without increasing my dietary fat? - Probably, but only in theory since I would have been far too hungry to have stuck with it !

 

[HSSS]

Hi HSS,
Sorry, I can't point to a study either. My personal experience is of being a TOFI and so trying to lose visceral fat and control my BG without consciously cutting down on calories. Thus As I cut carbs, I increased my fat intake to match, so I lost 10% of my weight after not being more than 2lbs overweight to start with.

Could I have theoretically done it without increasing my dietary fat? - Probably, but only in theory since I would have been far too hungry to have stuck with it !

And you in fact prove my point that fat is a lever to adjust for hunger and desire for weight loss, maintenance or gain.

There seems, in some circles, the belief that dietary fat is necessary to maintain ketosis and in fact if weight loss stalls it’s because not enough fat is eaten. Now perhaps it might stall if energy intake is low enough to mess with metabolism but otherwise?.?

 

[Pipp]

Thanks for raising this, @HSSS . It puzzles me, too.
I don’t lose weight on LCHF. In fact I do sometimes gain. Though it helps maintain good blood glucose levels. Until I gain too much weight, that is. If I don’t consume much fat on LCHF, I do get hungry, but can’t consume much fat, as my digestive system can’t cope with it, or too much protein.

I did find that getting into ketosis with the ND (very low calorie ) my fat seemed to melt away very quickly, so probably using personal fat store, and being in ketosis meant I did not feel hungry.

 

[Brunneria]

The link below may help with your query.
Scroll down to Point 4 and you will see what I mean.
https://blog.virtahealth.com/top-keto-mistakes/

I have attached the graphic too, because it summarises the idea.

Hi @HSSS

Another relevant link is to a vid by Butter Bob.
Have you ever heard of him?
He was huge on youtube a few years ago for a fab video called Butter Makes Your Pants Fall Off
This is a followup vid where he discusses the way fat and satiety interact for weightloss.

Obviously Butter Bob isn’t the proper research you were looking for, but it kind of goes to show how widespread and long lasting the Eat More Fat idea has been.

 

[ianf0ster]

The 'Butter Bob' video is a refreshing change from both the science based ones and the 'purist with a mission' ones.
We are all different, especially TOFIs like me, so this style may appeal to some who are put off by the complexity in the other videos they see.