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Following Dr Fungs logic....

G

gav_red

Active Member
Messages
41
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
In my attempt to learn as much as I can about diabetes I have come across Dr Fungs work and am enjoying the level he is pitching at as he is helping me understand a complex subject.

I am having trouble with one area though. With his model of the cells, mostly of the liver, being like a balloon that is full of fat and glucose in T2s that would mean they all have a fatty liver. Is that logic correct? Has that model been oversimplified too far? Can you test for fatty liver?
 
I consider myself reasonably fit, am 72kg with lowish body fat (19%). I have run and done weight training all my life (i'm 34 years old). I'm thinking that is not a typical stereotype for fatty liver?
 
gav_red said:
I consider myself reasonably fit, am 72kg with lowish body fat (19%). I have run and done weight training all my life (i'm 34 years old). I'm thinking that is not a typical stereotype for fatty liver?
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Less reliable than the scan tests, but nonetheless useful, are your liver function blood tests, particularly the ALT. If they are raised, it is a marker for fatty liver. Have you got on-line access to your blood test results, or print outs? If so, have a look. These tests are normally done as part of your diabetes review tests.
 
gav_red said:
I consider myself reasonably fit, am 72kg with lowish body fat (19%). I have run and done weight training all my life (i'm 34 years old). I'm thinking that is not a typical stereotype for fatty liver?
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Have you eaten a lot of fruit in the past? Fructose is quite well known for aiding NAFLD. Ask your doc for a scan if you are worried (you may or may not get it but it won't do any harm to ask). As a lot of us have found there is no "typical stereotype" for anything we're all unique. Cutting dietary carbs is however one of the best treatments for NAFLD as well as lowering blood sugar levels so is probably well worth a try in your situation.
 
I think the only way to know for certain if a person has a fatty liver is to get a scan done.

Having said that, no, I absolutely do not believe that every person diagnosed with T2 has a fatty liver.
There are a heck of a lot of people who just get a T2 diagnosis because 'they don't look like a T1' or 'they are the right age' or 'they are fat'.

But as anyone who has done more than a little reading on the subject knows, there is more to diabetes than soundbites. lol.

There are a number of different forms of T2 diabetes, and a big variation how that manifests (from pancreatis, to Thin Outside to Fat Inside, family tendencies, age related, etc. etc.). People can have T2 and beta cell damage.

Dr Taylor of Newcastle Diet fame seems to make the same assumption (that T2 = fatty liver) but when you look at his research there is a significant number of his study subjects who do not respond to his protocol by reversing. He never focusses on them, but my suspicion is that they were likely the ones who didn't have a fatty liver in the first place. Or who may have a fatty liver, but not fatty enough to be causing their T2. Or any one of several other possibilities.
 
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bulkbiker said:
Have you eaten a lot of fruit in the past? Fructose is quite well known for aiding NAFLD. Ask your doc for a scan if you are worried (you may or may not get it but it won't do any harm to ask). As a lot of us have found there is no "typical stereotype" for anything we're all unique. Cutting dietary carbs is however one of the best treatments for NAFLD as well as lowering blood sugar levels so is probably well worth a try in your situation.
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Iv'e eaten my fair share. Yes i'm doing the LCHF diet at the moment with mixed success, in terms of controlling blood sugar, but still early days. I'm not specifically worried about that problem just wondering if I could believe what Dr Fung was saying
 
gav_red said:
Iv'e eaten my fair share. Yes i'm doing the LCHF diet at the moment with mixed success, in terms of controlling blood sugar, but still early days. I'm not specifically worried about that problem just wondering if I could believe what Dr Fung was saying
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I've always found him pretty spot on.. as you can see from my pic..!
He tends to work with overweight long term Type 2's though so he may have a slight tendency to speak to that audience sometimes.
How long have you been doing it and how low carb are you trying?
 
Brunneria said:
I think the only way to know for certain if a person has a fatty liver is to get a scan done.

Having said that, no, I absolutely do not believe that every person diagnosed with T2 has a fatty liver.
There are a heck of a lot of people who just get a T2 diagnosis because 'they don't look like a T1' or 'they are the right age' or 'they are fat'.

But as anyone who has done more than a little reading on the subject knows, there is more to diabetes than soundbites. lol.

There are a number of different forms of T2 diabetes, and a big variation how that manifests (from pancreatis, to Thin Outside to Fat Inside, family tendencies, age related, etc. etc.). People can have T2 and beta cell damage.

Dr Taylor of Newcastle Diet fame seems to make the same assumption (that T2 = fatty liver) but when you look at his research there is a significant number of his study subjects who do not respond to his protocol by reversing. He never focusses on them, but my suspicion is that they were likely the ones who didn't have a fatty liver in the first place.
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Ahh I thought it might have been a gross over simplification. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
 
bulkbiker said:
I've always found him pretty spot on.. as you can see from my pic..!
He tends to work with overweight long term Type 2's though so he may have a slight tendency to speak to that audience sometimes.
How long have you been doing it and how low carb are you trying?
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Surely if that model is to be believed then weight would be irrelevant?

Only doing it couple of weeks, trying to get carbs to about 50g although I haven't mastered recording my food diet yet.
 
gav_red said:
Surely if that model is to be believed then weight would be irrelevant?
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Starting weight may indeed be irrelevant (hence TOFI - thin outside fat inside) . Have you read the piece from the Guardian by Richard Doughty who did a Newcastle diet lost about 7 pounds and "reversed" his Type 2 by losing visceral fat. As I said if you want to find out if you have fatty liver then ask your doctor if you can get a scan for it. Check out your liver function test results as @Brunneria has recommended.
 
gav_red said:
Surely if that model is to be believed then weight would be irrelevant?

Only doing it couple of weeks, trying to get carbs to about 50g although I haven't mastered recording my food diet yet.
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Obesity is believed to be a symptom of insulin resistance..... what comes first chicken or the egg.
 
bulkbiker said:
Starting weight may indeed be irrelevant (hence TOFI - thin outside fat inside) . Have you read the piece from the Guardian by Richard Doughty who did a Newcastle diet lost about 7 pounds and "reversed" his Type 2 by losing visceral fat. As I said if you want to find out if you have fatty liver then ask your doctor if you can get a scan for it. Check out your liver function test results as @Brunneria has recommended.
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Will do. Thanks for all your comments. Still got a lot to learn
 
I beleive weight is irrelevant as realised when you consider that the fasting growing group within T2s are those TOFIs in the sub continent, SE Asia and China.

Weight gain is a symptom of T2. Carrying extra weight puts one at risk but I beleive that the risk is solely because the western diet that promotes weight gain and insulin resistance is one and the same.
 
Guzzler said:
I beleive weight is irrelevant as realised when you consider that the fasting growing group within T2s are those TOFIs in the sub continent, SE Asia and China.

Weight gain is a symptom of T2. Carrying extra weight puts one at risk but I beleive that the risk is solely because the western diet that promotes weight gain and insulin resistance is one and the same.
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There are also some obese people that manage to "reverse" T2 without losing any weight.
 
Bluetit1802 said:
There are also some obese people that manage to "reverse" T2 without losing any weight.
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Aye, which is why I nominally agree with the 'Personal Fat Threshhold' hypothesis. We are not clones of one another and shouldn't be pigeon holed as such.
 
Hi @gav_red good for querying anyone who is prominent in the diabetes world. I find Dr Jason Fung amazing. He is prepared to argue his case solo, or on a panel. He sometimes uses endearing fruity language (which I love) and is not afraid to called something stupid. I have a lot of time for this man, as I believe he saves lives.
 
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