Food or Drink?

Outlier said:

Lighthearted but I'd still like your opinions:

I do intermittent fasting, as I don't usually get hungry before midday - sometimes quite a lot later. If I do feel hungry before then, I eat, but it's an unusual circumstance. While fasting, I have several coffees with a small amount of cream. With this system, my Dawn Phenomenon rises into the high 6s, very occasionally a 7, until either 3pm or after I eat (keto diet) whereupon it settles into the 5s, occasionally high 4s. Overall my Hb1ac is in the pre-diabetic/non diabetic range, so I'm not worried about it. I'm a high reactor to any stress, exercise, or situation that needs to be managed, and earned my living doing the latter, so again, I don't worry about that - it's just how I'm made.
As an experiment, I have recently been eating a small Greek yoghurt each morning, which usually means less coffee but not always. Now the question: should I regard the yog. as food or drink as in am I still fasting? Its texture is the same as the cream. I want to get the maximum benefit from fasting, which has been very helpful.

Whaddya think?

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Hi I believe unfortunately that yoghurt does count as food but Id also count the cream as breaking my fast too although some people would say it's exempt as solely fat whereas yoghurt definitely has some carb content - even the best of the bunch. I stick to water and or black tea or coffee during a fasting time. However I have reduced my fasting window from nearer 18 hours to 16 hours over the last few months so now only eat between 10 and 6 and then fast for 16 hours and eat within 8 hours. I now usually break my fast at 10ish with a small portion of kefir and lemon and lime zest but have had yoghurt when no kefir. It seems to be beneficial for me and means that I have a longer period to meet my nutritional needs I find it harder eating in a small couple of hours window as like smallish portions of food. I get overfaced if too much food in one serving. All you can do is test and see if your general bg patterns are staying the same - mine seem slightly lower with smaller meals over the 8 hour eating window. Good luck with your experiment

I am out on a limb here I think, as I think of fasting as a period of time without drink or food. If you mean doing without food plus any drinks with carbs then isn't adding cream is breaking the fast?
So I'd concentrate on whether you intend to abstain from carbs for a period of time.

I am one of those who find not eating anything first thing perversely raises my morning BS, so I don't fast.

I think it all depends on why you are fasting.
I would say that yoghurt is a food, and so is cream for that matter, in fact anything with calories in, even if it is a drink could not technically be called fasting.
The purpose of fasting for me is to limit the amount of insulin circulating, in the hope that less meals requiring an insulin response, will improve my insulin resistance.
For me yoghurt does cause a small rise in blood glucose and I guess would cause my pancreas to increase production a little, that's why I save my home made yog and berries for desert.
Cream in a coffee on the other hand, doesn't worry my meter one little bit, so as far as I'm concerned it's a delicious way to fend off hunger.
If the yoghurt works for you that's all that counts, it's your fast, you get to make the rules.

Outlier said:

Lighthearted but I'd still like your opinions:

I do intermittent fasting, as I don't usually get hungry before midday - sometimes quite a lot later. If I do feel hungry before then, I eat, but it's an unusual circumstance. While fasting, I have several coffees with a small amount of cream. With this system, my Dawn Phenomenon rises into the high 6s, very occasionally a 7, until either 3pm or after I eat (keto diet) whereupon it settles into the 5s, occasionally high 4s. Overall my Hb1ac is in the pre-diabetic/non diabetic range, so I'm not worried about it. I'm a high reactor to any stress, exercise, or situation that needs to be managed, and earned my living doing the latter, so again, I don't worry about that - it's just how I'm made.
As an experiment, I have recently been eating a small Greek yoghurt each morning, which usually means less coffee but not always. Now the question: should I regard the yog. as food or drink as in am I still fasting? Its texture is the same as the cream. I want to get the maximum benefit from fasting, which has been very helpful.

Whaddya think?

Click to expand...

I think it is what helps you get to where you want to be and as happy for you as it can be.
Fasting is without food and certain drinks but not water, or hot water infused.
You are correct about, not being strict with ending the fast. If you want to eat, eat! If you dont, dont! As long as it suits your day. There is no rules to when, where, how, if, a fast can be a few hours, a few days (not much more) and it is up to you, when you want to end it. No rules to have a meal. No such thing as organised meal times!
Keep asking.

Storing lipids away needs insulin.The cream may be pushing up your insulin despite no glucose rise. Its the Randle cycle at work.

Oldvatr said:

Storing lipids away needs insulin

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I get that insulin is used for fat storage but I would have thought that after >12hr fast, my dollop of cream is getting used not stored.
Please don't take my creamy coffee away, I couldn't stand it

catinahat said:

I get that insulin is used for fat storage but I would have thought that after >12hr fast, my dollop of cream is getting used not stored.
Please don't take my creamy coffee away, I couldn't stand it

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Thats why I referenced the Randle Cycle. You will burn lipids but only if in ketosis after your fast. i.e. your FBG levels are very low, and your liver is not able to give a dump so your body is forced to turn lipids into glucose for the nerves and brain. So coffee with cream may not directly affect glucose, but that process may still occur indirectly by neoglucogenesis. If FBG still in normal or high status then lipids will be stored instead.

Oldvatr said:

Thats why I referenced the Randle Cycle. You will burn lipids but only if in ketosis after your fast. i.e. your FBG levels are very low, and your liver is not able to give a dump so your body is forced to turn lipids into glucose for the nerves and brain. So coffee with cream may not directly affect glucose, but that process may still occur indirectly by neoglucogenesis. If FBG still in normal or high status then lipids will be stored instead.

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One of the reasons I love the forum is the continually learning.

I would eat whatever you need to, when you need to - yog, cream, coffee, whatever - regardless of labels.

There are definitely people who consider cream in coffee as fair game when fasting. We had a thread once (way back when IF was just becoming popular) and someone got very huffy because they thought they were fasting (on several coffees with cream) while other people didn't count that as a fast. At the time, I was drinking a coffee with cream as a breakfast that kept me fortified til about 2pm, so I was of the same opinion as the second group!

My own view is that if it has ingredients that fuel the body, then it breaks a fast.

Hi @Outlier. This is a fun thread! Ah yes. I get the discussion - absolutely. I think about my yummy aromatic pukka herb teas when thinking about fasting. Infused water does have a wee energy (as in calorific) load, but tiny, as does cream? Yes, I think. And yes - then there is the insulin response. But. In the scheme of things - if having cream and herb teas and coffee and tea gets us through the night, then, it's all right. (Thanks the late great John Lennon!) in this case - through intermittent fasting routines!

I've experimented with a bunch of different kinds of fasts and Very Low Calorie Diets (VLCD) on my 'type two diabetes journey' (cough cough - doesn't really feel like a journey, more like a really tough job with a very long boot camp involved). I did do a pure fast, once, of just water for a few days. It was my first post diagnosis fast. I've never done it again! Since it's been with herb teas, pots of herb tea, black tea and in the morning - coffee for sure. And, with cream, and with bone broth. So I don't do 'pure fasts' any more. And that is absolutely fine with me! But when I did my VLCDs and counted calories (ouch!) I did add in the few cals for the water infusions. And later, was much happier with cream and bone broth when still trying out no-food fasts. But yoghurt? Can't see that as being like an infused water , or in creams case - like a milk liquid and fat. (How can something sooooo yummy sound so awful in a simple definition!)

For me - it's defintely food.

Now as for alcohol and packing a punch with loading us with energy that is likely to be stored. As in fat storage on your body. I am very sorry to say I have experimented with alcohol, even the fairly moderate amounts I used to drink, as in lowering it, and noticing fat storage on my own body. And I have wished my galpal who first broached the subject with me when we were discussing fat storage plateaus and the like, that she had never told me I might be surprised at the calorific punch of a glass of lovely dry 0-2g of carbs dry wine. She was right. If you want to get off a weight plateau - likely the alcohol has to greatly decrease, or even ( I don't even want to say it...) has to go. (I said it, but I personally won't do it! but I did cut down a lot.) Only one way to find out - poor you!

The whole idea of fasting is to prevent triggers that cause insulin release. So ANYTHING that triggers a reponse ends a fast. Yoghurt has carbs so is guilty. fruit has carbs so is also guilty a fruit yoghurt is therefore very guilty. Cream is low carb so does not raise the glucose level significantly so seems to be ok - BUT it still generates an insulin release because the fat needs to be handled. Ditto alcohol, it too goes to make lipid storage which is why my nightly whisky drops my bgl by a couple of clicks, it is not guilt free.

As T2D I am unfortunate to have been running with high insulin levels, which my insulin resistance has been battling for 30 odd years now. I do not need to keep with high levels of insulin hanging around, and fasting is a way to reduce this obnoxious effect. So it took a while for IR to build up to problem levels, and I do not expect a trick like fasting will clear it overnight, so in my opinion, this discussion of cream versus yoghurt is just semantics and its not going to change the fasting process with any major breakthrough.