GI and carbs

honeybunny1 said:

Is there a good app that lists glycemic index/load and carbohydrate.content of common foods? There are a number on the app store but I am looking for something produced by Diabetes UK or similar.
A simple list of foods, no frills , no recipes.
If Diabetes UK don't provide one, why not?

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I found GI meaningless. If a food contains X amount of carbs then I can extract that amount or sometimes more if it is a pea or bean.
Carbohydrate content is normally accurate though. I stick to foods with under 11% carb content but I just looked them up on various websites and made a list in a notebook to take shopping. I do eat high cocoa chocolate from time to time, but only one square, and not often.

I use Carb Manager (the free version) of a way to keep my daily carbs in check. I don’t know if it list GI foods, as @Resurgam has said it’s meaningless for diabetics.

honeybunny1 said:

Thanks.GI is important to.me as T1 to try and maximise time in range.Indeed avoiding glucose spikes is advisable for everyone including non diabetics so avoiding insulin spikes.
I have a list of food carb values that I have compiled but I was looking for just one place to have handy on my phone for carbs and GI.
Yes I was referring to the charity Diabetes UK. it's the sort of tool that has great utility.

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The issue being made for type 2 isn’t that we don’t want to stay in range or avoid spikes - we do- it’s that our responses often don’t correspond to the alleged GI value.

honeybunny1 said:

Thanks.GI is important to.me as T1 to try and maximise time in range.Indeed avoiding glucose spikes is advisable for everyone including non diabetics so avoiding insulin spikes.
I have a list of food carb values that I have compiled but I was looking for just one place to have handy on my phone for carbs and GI.
Yes I was referring to the charity Diabetes UK. it's the sort of tool that has great utility.

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I am with you - GI is really useful for timing my bolus.
It is yet another thing that differs with the type of diabetes.

Be aware that this site is not the charity Diabetes UK. For that you need www.duabetes.org.uk.
It has confused many others before you.
Not sure how intentional it was when the website was chosen.

In Response said:

GI is really useful for timing my bolus.

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Same for me, also considering the fat and protein being eaten which slows absorption of carb.

honeybunny1 said:

I don't see why GI info is not useful to T2. The rate of absorption and assimilation of carbs is of relevance to everyone. High GI causes insulin spikes in those still producing some. I don't understand "alleged" GI value.
I do though agree that there is research that shows the GI does vary from person to person. However as a general rule the Index does provide good guidance on the likely bolus impact. Of course the way to test any variance from the norm is to self monitor the impact. Eg does an applie have a moderate effect on you or are you more susceptible to a higher or lower reaction. I guess there is much to learn about our personal response to carbs, fat etc. An improved understanding of diet optimisation is something that would help management.

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My problem is that I see no difference in the rate of anything. The GI of a food can be high or low, I just digest it and react to that number of carbs with a spike apparently the same as for a low or high GI food.
I don't have access to continuous monitoring of course, so there might be a difference I don't pick up on, but I simply avoid grain, high carb fruit and veges and processed foods with a high carb content - nothing over 10% carbs except a small amount of high cocoa content chocolate.

honeybunny1 said:

The rate of absorption and assimilation of carbs is of relevance to everyone.

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honeybunny1 said:

I do though agree that there is research that shows the GI does vary from person to person. However as a general rule the Index does provide good guidance on the likely bolus impact. Of course the way to test any variance from the norm is to self monitor the impact. Eg does an applie have a moderate effect on you or are you more susceptible to a higher or lower reaction.

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Your first sentence contradicts the second.

And most of us (which statistics alone mean there’s a lot more type 2 than 1) find that GI can be misleading. Testing GI values against glucometer results do not align. Yes high GI usually means high bgl. However low GI doesn’t always mean low BGL. I’m assuming GI was established with single foods and in a metabolically healthy population. Type 1 may have auto immune issues but they do not automatically have the metabolic issues type 2 have. Perhaps that’s the difference.

I found I had exactly the same reaction to white bread or wholemeal with approx the same value for carbs, same for pasta. My insulin resistance didn't care about GI just the number of carbs.

There are a couple of things in meals/drink that may delay the spike but I found it better not to spike at all above the 2 mmol/l after eating.

For those with type 2 discussing how carbs are carbs and raise your BG regardless of GI, please remember the OP has Type 1 where the speed of absorption of glucose can be very important for insulin timing.

The question was raised for this reason. GI (aka speed of absorption) makes a difference for those of us with Type 1.

honeybunny1 said:

I disagree. There is no contradiction. Whilst the GI is a good indicator for the general population that does not mean that individuals may not align.
Of course low GI does not necessarily mean low blood glucose.
The GI has to be assessed together with the Glycemic Load.
That is how much carbohydrate together with the speed of assimilation.

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Of course there is. You say in one breath it’s relevant to everyone and in the next it varies person to person.

“The glycemic (glycaemic) index (GI is a number from 0 to 100 assigned to a food, with pure glucose arbitrarily given the value of 100, which represents the relative rise in the blood glucose level two hours after consuming that food”

so yes it purports to mean low GI reflects lower bgl than higher gi foods.

And you are right, GL Is an improvement for many of us. Hence our wider spread concurrence with Dr Unwins infographics. The two are not the same thing though.

Once you’ve been here longer you’ll see just how many of us type 2 have problematic issues with GI and we are indeed a huge group that are targeted with GI being the answer to our woes. Type one are not bombarded with inappropriate dietary advice, well no more so than the rest of the population as far as I can see. Type 2 are fed a load of rubbish (pun intended) in the advice given.

For type 1 GI may well help with how fast the carbs hit to match insulin dosing, for type 2 it makes a lot less difference and overall carbs matter more. I’m glad it’s working for you but please be aware that Type 1 and type 2 are not the same in terms of dietary requirements and responses.

Here is a paper with GI values: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916523058409

I wonder how well one can approximate these values of GI values from constituent percentages (fat, protein, fibre, total carbs & sugars) from a source such as: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/composition-of-foods-integrated-dataset-cofid

I fear this paragraph may take the conversation off topic though, I'd not realised that this wasn't of use for Type 2 diabetics - do we know why? For a Type 1 knowing how fast the carbs will be absorbed is of use when dosing (as mentioned above) though of course you also need to know how many carbs to work out total insulin to take (with GI affecting pre-bolus and split bolus decisions), I had assumed that for Type 2 diabetics there would be a similar thing going on - slower absorption gives your pancreas a better chance of releasing sufficient insulin, though this is perhaps where I misunderstand the intricacies (of and presumably different types) of type 2 diabetes.

SimonP78 said:

, I'd not realised that this wasn't of use for Type 2 diabetics - do we know why? For a Type 1 knowing how fast the carbs will be absorbed is of use when dosing (as mentioned above) though of course you also need to know how many carbs to work out total insulin to take (with GI affecting pre-bolus and split bolus decisions), I had assumed that for Type 2 diabetics there would be a similar thing going on - slower absorption gives your pancreas a better chance of releasing sufficient insulin, though this is perhaps where I misunderstand the intricacies (of and presumably different types) of type 2 diabetes.

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I think there’s at least 2 parts to the answer re type 2, probably more, and we aren’t all the same either. It’s not to say it’s totally useless, more that it’s inconsistent thus unreliable. These are my guesses based on my understanding of how type 2 works. All I know for fact is that many type 2 find GI pretty misleading with some foods as it’s been posted here and elsewhere many many times by those testing their responses.

First is that whilst a slower release gives you chance to “keep up” with the carbs meaning a slightly lower spike you still have to get through them all eventually so it can prolong it instead. Less time in range if you like even if it’s not so far above the line. This can be seem with fats and fibre heavier meals too. A long bump beyond the 2hrs can cause long term damage as much as a shorter higher spike within can.

Also typically our issue isnt that we don’t have enough insulin to deal with the carbs, in fact we often have very high insulin levels, but that it simply doesn’t work properly (insulin resistance). For us it’s about how many carbs way more than how fast they hit us as our rate of processing is pretty much limited by the degree of IR we have. To go alongside this slowing it down means we raise our insulin levels even higher for longer trying to deal with the prolonged rise in blood glucose. Hyperinsulimia is responsible for many metabolic issues that come alongside type 2 and not be be desired and it make our IR worse over time too. Thats why approaches using medications designed to give us more insulin might bring down blood glucose in the short term but also makes the type 2 (by way of increasing IR) progressive and worse over time. Reducing our IR so our insulin becomes more effective should be the goal. Slowing the carbs down doesn’t do that the way reducing them entirely does.

Thanks @HSSS

honeybunny1 said:

I disagree. There is no contradiction. Whilst the GI is a good indicator for the general population that does not mean that individuals may not align.
Of course low GI does not necessarily mean low blood glucose.
The GI has to be assessed together with the Glycemic Load.
That is how much carbohydrate together with the speed of assimilation.

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One significant difference between T2D and others is that most T2D do not have first response of their insulin to simple carbs. The GI was worked out for normal people so T2D will not follow the same timings and spike levels. T2D tend to have Insulin Resistance which also affects the effectiveness of the insulin (both endogenous and exogenous). These traits will also probably apply to Insulin Dependant T2D. another confounder that may affect timing is that T2D tend to suffer Metabolic Syndrome, which increases body mass and volume - insulin effectivness is associated with body surface area (BSA) and again this will affect timings. Lastly, many T2 insulin users here are still on fixed dose and do not adjust bolus dose, or even use a bolus.

As a T2d on orals and diet, I note the GI and GL, but it makes little difference for me. I see similar reaction from sweet potato as I do to normal potato. I do see a difference between white bread vs seeded breads, but not to wholemeal bread. I suspect a CGM might show a difference especially in the first 15 minutes from first bite but its all over by the time I get round to testing.