AMBrennan said:
@Borofergie:
Did you actually listen to the podcast you referenced? Because it rather looks like an attempted proof by ghost reference to me - type 1 diabetes is never mentioned at all (and not just because Prof. Noakes apparently didn't get the memo about IDDM/NIDDM).
I wansn't talking about T1 diabetes. I was responding to what I (incorrectly thought) was a comment on low-carbing for endurance excercise. Phoenix is a marathon runner, and consequently someone I admire greatly. We've talked before about everything from carbing for marathons, to how I can avoid the joggers trots during a race.
Ghost reference is funny. I've spent the last 18 months trying to read almost everything published on low-carb endurance running. In fact I'm the top reviewer for standard text on the subject, Volek and Phinney's "Art and Science of Low Carb Performance" on Amazon.com (above Dr Richard Feinman):
http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Science-C ... 0983490716
AMBrennan said:
Phoenix, a T1 diabetic, asked in the T1 forum about how one would best cope with the special needs one might have as a result of having external injected insulin. The discussion on carbs vs fat in healthy endurance athletes is interesting but ultimately academic.
Conventional wisdom for endurance athletes is that you have to "carb load" for a race. This is what Noakes was talking against. No diabetic, IDD or not, should have to stuff themselves with pasta in order to compete, and then eat energy gels every few miles to avoid hitting the wall.
Fat adapted athletes burn glycogen more slowly than sugar burning "carbo loaded" athletes:
Phinney SD, et al. The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis without caloric restriction: preservation of submaximal exercise capability with reduced carbohydrate oxidation. Metabolism, Aug, 1983; 32 (8): 769-776.
http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011/04/ ... high-carb/
Why as a T1 diabetic would you want to load yourself with lots of carbohydrates, and then burn them at a higher rate, so that you had to refuel with even more carbohydrates a various points throught the race? Wouldn't it be simpler to eat fewer carbohydrates, burn fat instead of glycogen, and refuel less often? The former stratergy requires more glucose, more insulin, and carries the higher risk of a hypo.
AMBrennan said:
The only issue I have is that Prof. Noakes has completely ignored the rather large elephant in the room - he admits (17:40) that the problem in T2 diabetics is that their liver produces too much glucose, so the obvious solution would be to fix that by taking Metformin, but he completely ignores that (maybe not surprising given the host) in favour of the kludge (as in, it doesn't fix the underlying problem) that is eating a low carb diet.
Taking metformin is the kludge. Emptying your liver of glycogen and running on ketones instead of glucose is the obvious solution, actually fixing the underlying problem rather than using a relatively ineffective drug. My liver doesn't leak glucose, becauase (i) my brain needs only 25g of glucose a day (ii) my muscles are tuned to burn fat (iii) my liver is pretty much empty of glycogen most of the time.
My GP won't let me take metformin. Even if he did, it has a reputation for causing GI issues, which is not ideal for avoiding the runner's trots.
AMBrennan said:
if you're coming to the T1 forums and *incorrectly* telling phoenix, me and all other T1 diabetics that we could exercise on a low-carb diet despite of how the external injected insulin might be screwing with our metabolism during exercise, then your making it my business, and I will not stand for it.
I wasn't telling ayone that they could do anything. I was simply making the point that people do run marathons without carbo-loading.
However, since you make the point, you'll have to explain how T1s like Fallenstar manage to run Ultra Marathons on low-carb diets:
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=20294&p=229201&hilit=+ultra#p229201
Fallenstar said:
I ran 34 miles on Saturday, the first 12 were all Hills till I could get out to the main roads and I only planned to run to the next town and then ring my OH for a lift back but ended up feeling so good I ran all the way back...17 miles there,17 miles back..All done on a big bowl of mixed berries with a great big slosh of double cream :thumbup: So the" you can't do it on low carbs" is a load of old :silent: because I have been doing ultra Marathon on it for years ..and have great muscle to fat ratios and loads of energy and can run most of the high carb boys from my running club into the ground :wave: See ya!! :lol:
Keep it up , we ought to do a Marathon together for DUK :wink:
these guys are all low-carb T1 endurance runners too:
http://robbwolf.com/2011/11/18/sean-pal ... endurance/
http://paleohacks.com/questions/126306/ ... z28w2aTWIZ
http://asweetlife.org/feature/the-ketog ... n-insulin/
http://www.tudiabetes.org/group/diabeti ... ice-please
the evidence suggests that you are *incorrect*...
AMBrennan said:
For example, I just spent an hour on the treadmill in the gym, and eaten my way through 1.5 tubs of glucotabs (60g pure glucose) whilst exercising, and my BG at the end was 4.1 mmol/l. I have to eat more than twice the daily carb allowance suggested by people like Bernstein just to avoid hypos. I might be able to get away with less if I had a pump but I don't, so I cannot.
That's exactly my point. Because you eat lots of carbohydrate, your muscles are tuned to burn glycogen rather than fat, and so you burn through glycogen quickly and have to refuel.
If you went on a low-carb-ketogenic diet, and adapted for 3-4 weeks, your muscles would become more efficient at burning fat, and you'd get through the glucotabs at a much lower rate (although you'd probably still have to eat some in the course of a 26 mile rate).
There is also a significant difference between running anaerobically (for an hour) which is principally glycogen burning, and running at a slower aerobic pace for a marathon (which is principally fat burning).
