'going lower' trend worries

[Anonymous]

may I suggest that you add to your petition that you require regular testing regardless of what type of diabetes you have.... in particular you need to be safe to drive a vehicle.

Symptoms = bad..... Action = don't drive or do anything else risky

Look after yourselves and others.

Staying within safe BGLs counts

Here in Australia we must advise if we have a medical condition and it is noted on our licence. So if I don't do the right thing and I'm in an accident that was my fault... guess what! Yep, I'm in trouble aren't I. I need to be responsible and know that my BGL is within safe level before driving. So does every other diabetic (regardless of type).

Driving with symptoms is just as dangerous as driving drunk or affected by drugs.... yes that's right! Your judgment has already gone when you notice your symptoms.

 

[xyzzy]

Okay. So if someone has hypo symptoms interfering with their ability to think, coordinate movements etc, this is not dangerous and they should just get on with whatever they were doing and hope they were not in the wrong place at the wrong time, such as at the wheel... Surely not?

No one is saying that so why do you keep repeating it as if we are?

For example I said:

If you get those symptoms you should treat them whether you are diabetic or not and what ever blood level they emerge at. No one is disputing that and no one is accusing you of faking what you felt so please don't imply they are. If you are in a dangerous environment immediate treatment of the symptoms is obvious.

As you want this debate to go round in circles I'll oblige you again.

Your argument is no different to Mep's so I'm afraid it get's the same answer but this time I'll try and make in even clearer. At the time in happened you said you were a diet only or diet only + met T2 so...

How do you know EXACTLY the same thing wouldn't have happened if you hadn't been diagnosed diabetic? No one is disputing with you that what you said happened what we are disputing is that having the label "T2 diabetic" was the cause.

Lot's of people go dizzy, get nauseous or even pass out who don't have that label. Encouraging diet only or diet only plus Met diabetics to be more concerned about hypo's than the general non diabetic population is complete nonsense. It fact I would argue it can cause a newly diagnosed diet only T2 a load of issues if they get told "Now you are diabetic expect to hypo" Doing so can stop them getting their levels under control through a belief that they are now "different" to everyone else in the general population and that for some reason run higher risks and should therefore keep their levels high.

Did they have a smaller risk of a hypo the day before they were diagnosed? What about a month before or a year before? Did most even know about hypos before they were diagnosed or have even recognised one if they had one in their previous non diabetic life?

Why is a diet only T2 any more likely to hypo than a non diabetic? Where is your evidence?

 

[Defren]

Okay. Fine. Drive on then. Get blurred vision and lacking coordination and run a kid over. Then let's talk.

DO NOT DRIVE WHEN AFFECTED BY SYMPTOMS OF HYPO, RARE OR NOT.

That's not so hard.

Get used to the lower level in your sofa, that's cool. Or in the office. Or in the bedroom. Or walking down the street where you'll bump your head, not some toddler.

Thank you.

Read my posts, please. I have said clearly I have been into 3 BG's yet never had a hypo symptom. I have not had blurred vision or lacked co-ordination.

No, it's not hard, it's impossible, as I have not once, not ever even had a mild hypo symptom. I am on Metformin and diet only!

 

[Mileana]

If you don't have any symptoms, then don't worry.

As for the is a type2 more likely to have hypo's than non-diabetics, perhaps not. I was just saying if you do, then don't drive.

I will scroll back and find the posts that made me say what I did, bear with me a sec and I'll edit.

If every time a new T2 felt a bit rough because their BGs were getting a bit better they had half a jam Sarni, they'd never get in control.

I think we need to keep in mind that there are low sugar incidents (like i have) , which are horrid but not dangerous

and there are Hypo's

 

[Anonymous]

that's easily answered.... I never had a hypo prior to diabetes Xyzzy. Don't be dismissive of the fact it can happen to diet alone or on metformin. The point is you need to test and keep your BGLs within safe levels.... that means you shouldn't be having symptoms. Don't put yourself and others in danger. The main point of this thread asks does going lower cause for worry... answer.. yes it is. I've posted a couple of links here already. I get my info from an endocrinologist which apparently most of you haven't seen one as yet. I'd believe my endo over any comment here.

 

[lucylocket61]

I think this discussion is like 2 ships passing here...

I think we are all agreeing that if you have hypo-like symptoms you should not do anything you do not feel confident of doing until the symptoms have passed.

And that included stopping driving or operating machinery if you start to feel strange.

What we seem to be disagreeing with is the cause of those hypo-like symptoms. But is that even important? Does it matter why someone feels unwell? We wouldnt drive etc with a blinding migraine coming on, or the flu, or feeling dizzy, would we.

So can we all agree that we are each, personally responsible for making sure that whatever we do, we do it in a safe way?

and not worry about the causes of the unwellness, as that seems to be the divisive point. It has been shown from the comments that some people are sensitive to their blood sugar levels going down or up, and some are not. Each one is right. We are individuals. So lets focus on dealing with our individual reactions.

 

[Mileana]

Okay, deal.

As long as noone tells me my symptoms don't exist because I know they do, and did.

I get rather a bit miffed that because someone's kid had a bad hypo, that makes it almost an offense if anyone else has symptoms while not on insulin. That's a ****** argument when it comes to road safety and also emotional blackmail because who can argue with a mothers pain.

Then I just hope we're all wise enough to not cause some other mother an even worse pain.

-M

 

[lucylocket61]

Mileana:

As I understand what is being written, I think it basically means -

People are having hypo-like symptoms and they are type 2 diabetics not on insulin.

BUT they are not having these symptoms BECAUSE they are type 2 diabetics not on insulin. They are having them because they have a very sensitive reaction to blood sugar levels.

Thats is why I have always had these symptoms, and others who may or may not be type 2 diabetics also can and do have these symptoms.

So the symptoms have not been caused by either type 2 diabetes. And that is why there are no official guidelines. It is down to using our own judgement and being aware of our bodies.

Thats what i have understood from this part of the discussion. I am sure, if I have misunderstood, someone will come along and explain it better to me.

 

[Defren]

I'm outta here, getting to personal and heated!

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with "staying safe".... discussion about what a hypo is exactly I don't agree with. Our guidelines here (which I posted) is what I go by. Symptoms are dangerous... know what you're safe BGL levels are... that includes how low you can go before you get symptoms.... that's usually different for everyone.

I wish you all the best as only you are responsible for you at the end of the day. We're all different. My experience is my experience and it could be someone elses experience too. Just be careful.

 

[xyzzy]

Don't be dismissive of the fact it can happen to diet alone or on metformin.

I won't be dismissive if you show me the evidence that the frequency of hypos or "low blood sugars" or whatever you want to call it shows that a diet only or diet only + met T2 is higher than in a non diabetic. Show me evidence that you had those symptoms because you were diabetic and that a similar thing cannot happen if you were not on Metformin or not diabetic.

What about the non diabetic population. If anyone of them does something like not eat then does a load of exercise but still feels fine would you have all of them check their levels before driving just in case they hypo? It's all down to personal responsibility and nothing to do with being a diet only Type 2 diabetic. Just as important being a Type 2 diabetic is not an excuse for not taking responsibility.

As I understand what is being written, I think it basically means -

People are having hypo-like symptoms and they are type 2 diabetics not on insulin.

BUT they are not having these symptoms BECAUSE they are type 2 diabetics not on insulin. They are having them because they have a very sensitive reaction to blood sugar levels.

Thats is why I have always had these symptoms, and others who may or may not be type 2 diabetics also can and do have these symptoms.

So the symptoms have not been caused by either type 2 diabetes. And that is why there are no official guidelines. It is down to using our own judgement and being aware of our bodies.

Thats what i have understood from this part of the discussion. I am sure, if I have misunderstood, someone will come along and explain it better to me.

+1 Lucy that's exactly what most of us are saying.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think I can make myself any clearer Xyzzy.... science has nothing to do with experience. I can tell you I've had plenty of it... don't knock what I'm sharing here. I'm not joking or making things up. And my point is simply that you have to stay within safe levels. You must be responsible for yourself and others. Please don't tell me it can't happen unless you're on insulin as that's untrue. I don't particularly care if I happen to be in the minority with my experience... fact is it can happen to anyone at any time. And someone reading this may very well experience what I did, or may do so in the future. Everyone needs to stay safe.

 

[Scardoc]

On the subject of safety:

"I am aware of 1 sadly ( T1 ) It was reported not long after my diagnosis. He was on his way home from a night out, on a train. Had a hypo and people thought he was drunk! Very sad."

How many T1's out there actually wear an ID bracelet or something similar to say they have T1?? I have been meaning to get one for ages as I often end up 10 miles from home, running in the countryside. Reading the above makes me a bit ashamed that I haven't done so. Safety first!!

 

[shop]

Mileana:

As I understand what is being written, I think it basically means -

People are having hypo-like symptoms and they are type 2 diabetics not on insulin.

BUT they are not having these symptoms BECAUSE they are type 2 diabetics not on insulin. They are having them because they have a very sensitive reaction to blood sugar levels.

Thats is why I have always had these symptoms, and others who may or may not be type 2 diabetics also can and do have these symptoms.

So the symptoms have not been caused by either type 2 diabetes. And that is why there are no official guidelines. It is down to using our own judgement and being aware of our bodies.


Thats what i have understood from this part of the discussion. I am sure, if I have misunderstood, someone will come along and explain it better to me.

+1 Lucy. Thats exactly what we are getting at.

 

[shop]

On the subject of safety:

"I am aware of 1 sadly ( T1 ) It was reported not long after my diagnosis. He was on his way home from a night out, on a train. Had a hypo and people thought he was drunk! Very sad."

How many T1's out there actually wear an ID bracelet or something similar to say they have T1?? I have been meaning to get one for ages as I often end up 10 miles from home, running in the countryside. Reading the above makes me a bit ashamed that I haven't done so. Safety first!!

Very Good point Scardoc! The problem is as Graazer said we are all too worried about the consequences of approaching, and that is a problem in itself!

Lucy.

 

[shop]

Okay, deal.

As long as noone tells me my symptoms don't exist because I know they do, and did.

I get rather a bit miffed that because someone's kid had a bad hypo, that makes it almost an offense if anyone else has symptoms while not on insulin. That's a ****** argument when it comes to road safety and also emotional blackmail because who can argue with a mothers pain.

Then I just hope we're all wise enough to not cause some other mother an even worse pain.

-M

Mileana no one has said that your symptoms dont exist, in fact If you read my posts, I have said the opposite I know they exist. What I am saying is that a diabetic not on insulin does not have the problem of sugars continuing to plummet to unconcious levels.

No body is using emotional blackmail but I think due respect for the parents of a T1 child is something worth shouting about. In my eyes they have a much tougher job than the rest of us and none of us know how hard it must be!

Lucy Locket has hit the nail on the head with her summary!

Lucy.

 

[Grazer]

So, got up this morning (late) and this is still rumbling.
Lucylocket gave an easy and quick description of all this.
I'll try and re-iterrate for the last time,

There are lots of reasons why people may not feel safe to drive. A dose of Flu or a cold. A migraine. Low blood sugar, be you diabetic or not. Simples. If you don't feel safe to drive, don't drive.
BUT
If you are going to tell all diabetics to test BGs before driving (as has been suggested here), you might as well tell the entire population to test before driving. Practical? No. Necessary? No.
Because diabetes in itself does NOT cause hypos. Nor does Metformin. LOTS of links have been shown on this thread to medical sites saying Metformin doesn't cause hypos. NOT ONE has been shown saying it does. Here's another from the American Diabetes Association:-

"Biguanide (by-GWAH-nyd)
Brand Name Generic Name
__ Glucophage (GLOO-coh-fahj) __ metformin (met-FOR-min)
__ Glucophage XR __ metformin-long-acting
__ Riomet (RY-oh-met) __ metformin-liquid

What does this type of medicine do?
This type of medicine, which comes in pill or liquid form, lowers the amount of glucose made by your liver. Then your blood glucose levels don’t go too high. This type of medicine also helps treat insulin resistance. With insulin resistance, your body doesn’t use insulin the way it should. When your insulin works properly, your blood glucose levels stay on target and your cells get the energy they need. This type of medicine improves your cholesterol levels. It also may help you lose weight.
...................................
What are the possible side effects?
This type of pill doesn't cause low blood glucose by itself. But your risk of having low blood glucose goes up if you also take

•diabetes pills that cause low blood glucose
•insulin

Which is exactly, and all, we have been saying. Metformin on it's own does NOT cause hypos. So diet only patently doesn't either. If you have a link saying Metformin causes hypos, PLEASE share it with us. Please also share any links you have that show diabetics on diet only are at risk of hypos.

So, if you're poorly and can't drive, don't. If you have low blood sugar don't blame it on your metformin, blame it on a lack of food with exercise or another medical condition. Lots of people like Lucylocket have low blood sugar without diabetes.

So I suggest we stop telling new diabetics on diet only/metformin that they may get "hypos"; we all know the connotation of this to new diabetics. If you want to tell them that if they reduce their food intake too far because of their diagnosis that they may get low blood sugar the same as anybody else, fine. Don't tell them their metformin may cause it. And let's remember that the biggest challenge we have with most new type 2's is in STOPPING them from eating bread, sugar, bakery products and so on. Let's not give them an excuse to eat those things everytime they THINK their blood sugar is going too low, because maybe they're not used to lower more normal BGs, when for the vast majority getting out of double figures is the first challenge. Remember, a new diabetic is hopefully changing their diet radically, might be exercising for the first time in ages, will have lowering blood sugar levels, will be frightened and maybe depressed; ALL of these things can lead them to feel unwell, nauseous, giddy and so on. No wonder they make think "this is a hypo" when they've been told they can get them. Let's start distinguishing between true HYPOS and the low blood sugar spells that changes to diet and exercise regimes can bring.

 

[Scardoc]

Very Good point Scardoc! The problem is as Graazer said we are all too worried about the consequences of approaching, and that is a problem in itself!

Lucy.

Another sad reflection of the World we live in today My Wife and I found a man who appeared to be unconscious in a local park a few months back. The smell of alcohol was a bit of a give away but we still phoned the emergency services and made sure someone who could intervene did so. It would be great if we all took an interest in our fellow man and intervened where we thought necessary. The problem is - do I want my Wife telling the kids that I am no longer around because I tried to help someone and got stabbed?? An extreme example, yes, but it happens.

Basically, it emphasises the message of looking after your diabetes properly and taking no chances. Rely on yourself first and foremost.

 

[xyzzy]

And let's remember that the biggest challenge we have with most new type 2's is in STOPPING them from eating bread, sugar, bakery products and so on. Let's not give them an excuse to eat those things everytime they THINK their blood sugar is going too low, because maybe they're not used to lower more normal BGs, when for the vast majority getting out of double figures is the first challenge.

Yes I agree Grazer, apart from the distinction that an insulin induced hypo is life threatening and normally having "low blood sugars" isn't that's the other thing that makes me angry in all of this, the damage it can do to the newly diagnosed.

When that newly diagnosed diet only diabetic starts believing having "low blood sugars" is more dangerous than "high ones" because of some perceived hypo threat then within a few years they wont be bothering about driving anyway as they'll either be dead, blind or missing a foot. The responsible message is that given by the vast majority of posters on this thread and that is diet only or diet + met T2's run no real additional risks than a non diabetic.

 

[shop]

And let's remember that the biggest challenge we have with most new type 2's is in STOPPING them from eating bread, sugar, bakery products and so on. Let's not give them an excuse to eat those things everytime they THINK their blood sugar is going too low, because maybe they're not used to lower more normal BGs, when for the vast majority getting out of double figures is the first challenge.

Yes I agree Grazer, apart from the distinction that an insulin induced hypo is life threatening and normally having "low blood sugars" isn't that's the other thing that makes me angry in all of this, the damage it can do to the newly diagnosed.

When that newly diagnosed diet only diabetic starts believing having "low blood sugars" is more dangerous than "high ones" because of some perceived hypo threat then within a few years they wont be bothering about driving anyway as they'll either be dead, blind or missing a foot. The responsible message is that given by the vast majority of posters on this thread and that is diet only or diet + met T2's run no real additional risks than a non diabetic.

+1 Grazer and Xyzzy.

Lucy xxx