Has anyone failed to reverse their T2 on Newcastle Diet?

[Tannith]

From the DiRECT study protocol
"Food reintroduction phase (weeks 12–18)
The FR phase includes a stepped transition to a food- based diet based on the “Eatwell” guidelines "

Sorry Bulkbiker. Yes the DIRECT protocol did mention the Eatwell plate. It wasn't mentioned in the lectures so I forgot.
I still think that doing ND is a no brainer. It is the only (potential) cure other than bariatric surgery. I have nothing whatsoever to lose. If it doesn't work for me I am no worse off. Even if it doesn't result in complete reversal there is a good chance I shall save some of my remaining beta cells even if not all. And there is a good chance I shall be among the 70% or so lucky ones as I don't think I have had T2 for much more than 4 years.

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/Researc...t/Research-spotlight-low-calorie-liquid-diet/

 

[bulkbiker]

Sorry Bulkbiker. Yes the DIRECT protocol did mention the Eatwell plate. It wasn't mentioned in the lectures so I forgot.
I still think that doing ND is a no brainer. It is the only (potential) cure other than bariatric surgery. I have nothing whatsoever to lose. If it doesn't work for me I am no worse off. Even if it doesn't result in complete reversal there is a good chance I shall save some of my remaining beta cells even if not all. And there is a good chance I shall be among the 70% or so lucky ones as I don't think I have had T2 for much more than 4 years.

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/Researc...t/Research-spotlight-low-calorie-liquid-diet/

Completely agree but if it doesn't work don't beat yourself up about it.. and note the success rate has been demonstrably lower than 50% from Prof Taylors own reports whatever rubbish DUK writes .. they are overestimating it's effectiveness with no evidence.

 

[Begonia]

Why is the ND diet always pitted against LCHF? Why not do both? I have heard many say "LCHF isn't a diet, it is a way of life". So an 8 week break to try a VLCD style, low sugar diet - would that really do harm? Why not adapt the ND diet to being a LCHF diet with reduced calories? Then everyone is happy.

I just do not understand why there is so much resistance to something - I really don't. I would like to see the evidence that it is a load of rubbish. It would be terribly sad if the DCUK team decided to invest all of that money so they could finally stick two fingers up to LCHF? For me, it just doesn't make any sense.

I am giving it a go - what harm, my ability to tolerate even 10g of carbs is absolutely insane so even if the ND means I can tolerate a few more for a short period that would be great. I am certainly not knocking the LCHF diet - brilliant; did me a load of good it really did and I intend, after my ND, to chose this as a way of life. And if it has nothing to do with the ND way but is something else - I don't care as long as I see an improvement.

Prof Taylor wrote the foreword to Michael Mosleys book (the eight week blood sugar diet). This is effectively a lowish carb (about 50g per day) Mediterranean style diet aimed at doing same as Newcastle diet but using real food. Prof Taylor doesn't care how you achieve the weight loss.

 

[Oldvatr]

Surely the Eatwell Plate is only a '****** diet' in the sense that for diabetics it's full of carbs? I would imagine a person with normal blood sugar response would be fine on that diet so long as they kept portions reasonable. Most people eat that way, after all, with relatively few ill effects. Obviously if you're a diabetic it's terrible, but the point of the ND is to make the participants non-diabetic. For a diet that seeks to restore pancreatic function to non-diabetic normal then it makes sense that they'd want to see what happens when you start eating carbs again. You wouldn't lose weight, but as long as you weren't throwing in tons of excess carbs I don't see that it would cause an issue - provided that your insulin response was back to normal.

Though again we're circling round to what constitutes remission, reversal and non-diabetic within the parameters of the study

You seem to be missing the point. ND is aimed at T2 diabetics, so yes, Eatwell is a ****** diet for us compared to others available. This thread is not about Normal People and their needs. It may well be adapted for fixing normal obesity and or NAFLD issues, but the research so far has used T2D as their test subjects, and monitored for diabetic responses

 

[Tannith]

"A total of 87% of the short-duration group and 50% of the long-duration group achieved nondiabetic fasting plasma glucose levels at week 8. Clinically significant improvements in blood pressure and lipid profile were seen regardless of diabetes duration." Results of Roy Taylor's second study with the 30 people.
www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/.../files/long-versus-short-term-reversal-article.pdf
Research: Treatment Restoring normoglycaemia by use of a very low calorie diet in long- and short-duration Type 2 diabetes

 

[AlexMagd]

You seem to be missing the point. ND is aimed at T2 diabetics, so yes, Eatwell is a ****** diet for us compared to others available. This thread is not about Normal People and their needs. It may well be adapted for fixing normal obesity and or NAFLD issues, but the research so far has used T2D as their test subjects, and monitored for diabetic responses

Sorry may not have been clear - the optimal outcome for ND is that the person finishing it is no longer diabetic i.e. has normal insulin response, so going back to an Eatwell plate diet wouldn't necessarily be harmful for someone with restored pancreatic function (so long as it doesn't cause them to gain weight). I'm just saying that I can see their logic in trialling the effect this has on the DIRECT subjects after their initial 12 week diet rather than testing the effects of, say, an LCHF diet or IF - because their goal is to get people back to normal. Eating carbs in 'normal person' amounts is a good way to test that. I know if I were to do ND and scored normal BG ranges after eating a blueberry muffin, I'd consider my T2D reversed

 

[bulkbiker]

"A total of 87% of the short-duration group and 50% of the long-duration group achieved nondiabetic fasting plasma glucose levels at week 8. Clinically significant improvements in blood pressure and lipid profile were seen regardless of diabetes duration." Results of Roy Taylor's second study with the 30 people.
www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/.../files/long-versus-short-term-reversal-article.pdf
Research: Treatment Restoring normoglycaemia by use of a very low calorie diet in long- and short-duration Type 2 diabetes

And as I said after 6 months 13 out of the 29..I really can't see how reversal that is only there before the trial ends can be "reversal" there has to be some time period. But good luck with your experiment.

 

[Brunneria]

I think the duration of the ND effect is crucial.

My opinion on this is formed by 2 things:

Firstly, if you take anybody with impaired glucose tolerance off the Eatwell, and feed them 800 cals a day of food or shakes, then their HBA1c is likely to plummet. That is great news, of course. But testing an HbA1c after 8 or 12 weeks of NDing and declaring 'reversal' is a bit like sending people on an intensive immersive language course and then testing them on the curriculum. They should pass the exam. You would hope.

But if you take those graduating NDers and move them onto the Eatwell for 2-3 months, then you get a better picture of whether they are reversed. 6 months would be better. By then, they will be exposed to enough carb to show up on the HbA1c if it is going to. Also necessary to allow for weight regain. Or not.

My second point is based on my own experience of my own body. It has taken a lot of self testing, and a lot of experimentation (n=1), but i am pretty sure of the following
- i've never had a fatty liver (no blood tests have ever shown the slightest hint)
- i've lost well over 20% of bodyweight to no improvement in bgs (not using the ND)
- i only get T2 level blood glucose when i am eating gluten
- when i am gluten free for several weeks my tolerance for carbs increases to being able to tolerate 'moderate carbs'

So, just think about that for a moment.
It makes me very unsuitable for the ND, yet the ND would appear to work very well for me.

If i went from T2 blood glucose levels on the Eatwell (with gluten) to 12 weeks on the ND, i would lose weight.
Of course. Maybe 15% or more.
My bgs would plummet to non D levels.
The ND is gluten free so my readings would be good!
My HbA1c would be wonderful!
I would be dancing in the streets, claiming reversal and preaching the ND Message.
Then i would revert to the Eatwell or even low Carb (it takes specific effort to Low Carb without gluten, so i would inevitably be eating gluten again)
Within a day or two my bgs would be rising and my 'reversal would be guttering out like a candle in the rain.
Too early to blame weight regain, or fatty liver/pancreas, but i would be getting diabetic bg results in less than a week.

Interestingly, my experience would be completely different if i did the Blood Sugar Diet on 800 cals of real food. Even a hint of gluten in that menu and my bgs would stay wangy. I would still lose weight. But the BSD would leave me unreversed, while the gluten free ND would reverse me temporarily.

And i can't be the only one, can I?
I'm simply not that special a little snowflake.
There must be other people whose food intolerances/medications cause similar effects.

So i am pretty certain that claims of reversal are not worth the pixels they are written in, until there has been several months of normal eating, and an HbA1c or two after that period of normal Eatwell eating.

 

[ringi]

If you have no visceral fat to get rid of, then your T2 is probably not going to be improved by Very Low Calorie Diets.

If you have no visceral fat (confirmed with the Newcastle NMR machine with their special software) and have had diabetes for only a few years, then you don't have Type2!

 

[ringi]

i've never had a fatty liver (no blood tests have ever shown the slightest hint)

You can have a lot of fat in your liver without the blood tests showing it up, the Newcastle group were the first to programme an MNR scanner so as to allow a good measurement of fat inside of liver cells. You can have fat inside liver cells without having fat around the liver, a normal scan only shows fat around the liver.

 

[ringi]

I think a diet should only be judged by the initial success (or otherwise). If the diet shrinks the liver and pancreas and removes their fat, and this results in normal BG levels then I think the diet should be called successful. Obviously it is important for people to keep the fat off , but whether or not they do has nothing whatsoever to do with the original diet by which they lost the weight. It only has to do with the quality of the maintenance diet and adherence to it.

What if the diet results in someone's body slowing down, so it is very hard from them to keep the weight off? This is clearly an issue with the standard NHS diets, I don't know if it is with ND.

 

[Brunneria]

You can have a lot of fat in your liver without the blood tests showing it up, the Newcastle group were the first to programme an MNR scanner so as to allow a good measurement of fat inside of liver cells. You can have fat inside liver cells without having fat around the liver, a normal scan only shows fat around the liver.

I have eaten low carb for decades
I have had impaired glucose tolerance for decades
I have had impaired glucose tolerance at half my current body weight and at 75 pounds heavier than my current bodyweight.
Yet my glucose tolerance improves massively when i eliminate gluten from my diet.

So, even if I have a fatty liver (and i am sure that i don't) then my glucose intolerance disappears when i stop eating gluten and stay this weight.

I stand by my post above, especially with regard to the importance of only claiming reversal after months of 'normal' eating, and an HbA1c taken at the end of those months.

 

[ringi]

I paid for an ultrasound privately in early 2016. £149 for a comprehensive report and pics. I was hoping to see a fatty liver etc, but was disappointed to find there was none! I had hoped that if I was carry viseral fat, I had an 'easy' solution

The Newcastle custom NMR scanner and software can measure fat inside of liver cells, this often shows fat that is not visible on an ultrasound.

 

[ringi]

I still think that doing ND is a no brainer. It is the only (potential) cure other than bariatric surgery. I have nothing whatsoever to lose. If it doesn't work for me I am no worse off.

Intermittent fasting and "very low carb" also results in lots of people reversing their Type2, I expect also mostly by removing fat from Liver cells and Beta cells. Lots of exercises (including resistance training) at the level of many hours a day in the gym has also worked for some people. Therefore we have at least 4 methods that can potentially cure Type2, but no good way to know what will work best for each person. (But they can all be combined in different combinations...)

We also have people who get a high level of insulin resistance due to inflamed cells caused by some food they are allergic to, often they turn this round with "low carb" without every finding out it was due to being allergic to wheat.

I see reduced carbs (under 200g) as being the "bedrock" too good longterm results but not enough on its own to reverse type2.

 

[ringi]

Remember that "reversed" was defined as being a totally normal BG and insulin response to about the worse food someone at risk of diabetes could have. I would love to know how the people who "failed" did over the next few years and if they are taking fewer drugs with better BG control then they would have otherwise.

The main takeaway message is that they have proved 100% that type2 can be completely reversed while also showing the process with fat lose from the liver and bête cells. The published studies never set out to find the best way to control diabetes; they were just trying to understand the process of someone getting type2, by reversing the process with lots of monitoring while the reversal was going on.

We now need large-scale studies in the UK, to see what the best method is given the limited time GPs etc have to explain it. To save the NHS lots of money and improve many lives, there is no need to reverse type2, “just” control BG without having to increase the drugs someone is taking every few years. Most of us can name at least one GP who is already doing this at very low cost……..

What the Newcastle group has done is proved 100% that Type2 can be reversed, so now no doctor can claim otherwise.

 

[ickihun]

Interesting about length of being diabetic.. I went back and re-read Counterbalance.. on that one length of time was from 6 months to 23 years. Now on the DirRECT study it is 6 years or less.. which would imply to me it didn't work very well for those diagnosed for longer.

Just like bariatric surgery results on longterm diagnnosed. ND was first set up as the alternative to surgery... maybe.

 

[ringi]

But just like bariatric surgery, it does give "improvements" to people with long-term diagnosed.

 

[Tannith]

What if the diet results in someone's body slowing down, so it is very hard from them to keep the weight off? This is clearly an issue with the standard NHS diets, I don't know if it is with ND.

It may be hard for them to keep the weight off but if they got it off they can keep it off. Keeping it off allows more calories than they could have while getting it off. And they never have to be hungry keeping it off as they are allowed to eat exactly as many calories as their body needs at that moment,whether their body has slowed down or not.

 

[Oldvatr]

If you have no visceral fat (confirmed with the Newcastle NMR machine with their special software) and have had diabetes for only a few years, then you don't have Type2!

Eh? Where is this from? Who says?

 

[serenity648]

It may be hard for them to keep the weight off but if they got it off they can keep it off. Keeping it off allows more calories than they could have while getting it off. And they never have to be hungry keeping it off as they are allowed to eat exactly as many calories as their body needs at that moment,whether their body has slowed down or not.

Unfortunately many of us can testify that getting the right off, and keeping it off are not always possible. Our bodies are not machines, and do odd things sometimes.