Have you cured or reversed type 2

[Yorksman]

Reversed diabetes ? HA ! total poppycock ! the land of the terminally bewildered awaits you all !
So maybe you can fix a malfunctioning pancreas ? well done ! For how long ? Come on ! What about a failing heart, perhaps you can fix that too ?

Now, here's a little story. I developed a heart condition which put me in the very serious category. One side of the heart was enlarged causing the ventricle to only partially operate correctly, you could see this on the echogram, and the back pressure was forcing liquid from my blood into my lung.

'Is there anything I should be doing to help stop this?' I asked.

'No, it won't get better, the best we can hope for is to manage it by controlling blood pressure. Don't worry, many of my patients having been coming to see me for ten years or more', the consultant told me.

Three years later I was signed off as the situation improved and eventually disappeared.

'Quite remarkable' he said. 'We don't see this normally'.

They never actually did know why this was happening, only that it was happening and then stopped happening.

reminded me of my programming days:

'Blimey, have you got it working?'

'Yes'

'How?'

'No idea'.

 

[Sunshine_Kisses]

Yorksman, I LOVE your little story!!


Diagnosed Type 2, 22nd Feb 2013
Hba1c 7.5
Three month trial of managing through diet & exercise.
Low carb, pescatarian
Trying various supplements!

 

[wizardo]

I was diagnosed with Type2 about 3 months ago bg levels about 14. No doubt had the complaint for a couple of years without twigging the symptoms. I've done a heck of a lot of reading on the subject. Went to a day long clinic yesterday and learnt absolutely nothing and even given information which is patently just wrong. I don't think that the treatment is that difficult. When first diagnosed I was given a bag full of pills metformin, gliclazide, and statins. Apparently diet and exercise were no good for me as I was too far gone. I didn't take the gliclazide as my research showed that it would burn out my pancreas, metformin seemed pretty good and I didn't take the statins. I went on a zero carbohydrate diet no fruit and hard knackering exercise every day (swimming and gym). I lost over 2 stone and got a heck of a lot fitter and my bg readings dropped to something like 6 with the odd reading in the 5s and some high end 6s. I have been doing my no carb, high exercise regime for 3 months. When my diabetic nurse saw my last bg readings she nearly fell off her chair and removed glilazide from my prescription. She even suggested that I give a talk to pre-diabetics - the talk won't take long!! Now, I know I'm not cured as I suspect a bit of indulgence on the carbs would see my bg levels rise. If losing belly fat lowers insulin resistance why can't we be cured? Is it because our pancreas is partly "blown"? I'd like to know what part of the condition cannot be permanently reversed for Type2s. Incidentally, I have eaten loads of eggs, bacon, mushrooms, meats, strong cheese lots of vegetables, salads and plenty of red wine and this has worked brilliantly. Just one snag, my cholesterol has gone up on this diet so it looks like I might have to take the statins. I do hope that my tale encourages forum members, especially those recently diagnosed that you really can make a big difference without the easy way of tablets. I just don't want to blow my pancreas (with gliclazide) as if ever some sort of cure does come along a part functioning pancreas must be a better starting point than one that is to all intents and purposes dead.

 

[Anonymous]

Reversed diabetes ? HA ! total poppycock ! the land of the terminally bewildered awaits you all !
So maybe you can fix a malfunctioning pancreas ? well done ! For how long ? Come on !
What about a failing heart, perhaps you can fix that too ?
TRUST me I have BOTH conditions, and if fixing was easy we'd all be at it ! Trust the surgeons - They KNOW what they are doing! gp's just guess on what they are told to say, check with dr briffa, smart man........
This isn't aimed at anybody in particular, just the idea that the medics ( god bless them !, have signally failed at every turn to come up witha a CURE-ALL !, well done and WELL paid them ! ) waste of time and space ! all their efforts are pointless............

Well that's about it buddies ! keep taking the poison, and washing down with a bloody great glass of the Russian antidote !


I would definitely be interested in some well meaning and intelligent responses........Please !

Superchip

Still around 19 years after a heart transplant? I bet you haven't spent the last 19 years worrying yourself silly over your then replacement heart, I hope! And how did you wangle 'oral' treatment on the NHS! (ref: Profile) :wink: Like you, I eat when I'm hungry as that stops me from hankering after something naughty (of the food kind). I also try to squeeze a bit of living in between carb-counting, blood testing and jumping on the scales, otherwise what's the point.

I am lucky in that my GP practice (scary but appropriate word that!) seems to be quite switched on and interlinked with each other and know more about me than I do! My eldest sister living in a different area was recently diagnosed at the age of 70 (bg 19) and was given tablets but no means of checking her blood etc. There doesn't seem to be any consistent, joined-up thinking across the board. Small wonder that some people are jumping at potential 'miracle' cures and looking for answers from other diabetics rather than from their GPs.

I expect I will upset someone with these comments ... it's par for the course for me, but, hey ho!

 

[Yorksman]

I am lucky in that my GP practice (scary but appropriate word that!)

LOL. It seems to be less Practice Makes Perfect and more Lessons Have Been Learned. Surely it's about time that it was the other way around?

Or maybe they just see us as the test dummies?

Our practice has iron bars in front of the windows, steel gates in front of the doors and no post boxes in case someone pours petrol through the letter box. 'Necessary measures to protect against vandalism' they claim.

Funny, the Post Office, Funeral Directors, Pharmacy, Scouts Hut, Methodist Chapel, Library, Bakers, Indian Take Away, Pizza Shop, Grocers and Dental Surgery dont' have a single piece of grafitti on them despite having no such 'protection' at all. All these places front onto a sort of circular car park and no cars ever seem to get scratched.

Maybe they are doing terrible experiments on some of their patients late evenings? Reminds me of the Klopeks in the film The Burbs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF-13kL1PY0

 

[Anonymous]

I am lucky in that my GP practice (scary but appropriate word that!)

LOL. It seems to be less Practice Makes Perfect and more Lessons Have Been Learned. Surely it's about time that it was the other way around?

Or maybe they just see us as the test dummies?

Our practice has iron bars in front of the windows, steel gates in front of the doors and no post boxes in case someone pours petrol through the letter box. 'Necessary measures to protect against vandalism' they claim.

Funny, the Post Office, Funeral Directors, Pharmacy, Scouts Hut, Methodist Chapel, Library, Bakers, Indian Take Away, Pizza Shop, Grocers and Dental Surgery dont' have a single piece of grafitti on them despite having no such 'protection' at all. All these places front onto a sort of circular car park and no cars ever seem to get scratched.

Maybe they are doing terrible experiments on some of their patients late evenings? Reminds me of the Klopeks in the film The Burbs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF-13kL1PY0

Suggest you barracade them in, feed them on Actislim though the bars, and they should then eventually find their own way out! :mrgreen:

 

[Nike69]

Hi I absolutely want to be involved in this. I am reversing right now and it has been a long hard slog. Its not easy thats why most dont manage. I have taken no meds since diagnosis and have had some great results through change in diet. I am very pleased with the food i eat now. Its tasty and healthy and exciting. there is little i miss and i am pleased that i have kicked all sugar and salt addiction and cravings. its the key. Anyway please feel free to contact me. PM me your number and I will happily talk to you. I thought nobody on this website believed it could be done, but I do.

 

[lrw60]

Hi Nike69,

I would like to know more about you and your condition to see if it is anything like some of us who have managed to 'lose' diabetes. Weight, age etc. C'mon! spill the beans (low carb of course).

Lee

 

[Anonymous]

Hi I absolutely want to be involved in this. I am reversing right now and it has been a long hard slog. Its not easy thats why most dont manage. I have taken no meds since diagnosis and have had some great results through change in diet. I am very pleased with the food i eat now. Its tasty and healthy and exciting. there is little i miss and i am pleased that i have kicked all sugar and salt addiction and cravings. its the key. Anyway please feel free to contact me. PM me your number and I will happily talk to you. I thought nobody on this website believed it could be done, but I do.

Hi, can you give me your definition of 'reversal' as it's not clear to me what this means? Is the end-point better controlled diabetes or cure?

I am due for my 'annual bloods' soon, so I will find out the latest then. I guess the 'proof' would be a repetition of the 'lucozade' test which was used to diagnose my diabetes in the first place. Have you had such a test (or equivalent) recently to confirm your reversal?

I am not on any medications and do not 'carb-count'. However, out of curiosity, I did a sort of test the other evening by eating 100g white pasta and 100g garden peas along with other food. My reading after 2 hours was 6.8. Last evening I had a roast which included three potatoes, half a broccoli and a sauce containing three dessert spoons of refined sugar (for the benefit of my other half!). My reading after 2 hours was 5.8.

I eat about 5 times a day and sensibly (I hope) to avoid hunger pangs and hypos, eating fresh food where possible, and I do not have the problem of 'switching' from a special diet back to normal eating and missing out on my favourite foods. My weight is reducing at a sensible 1lb or so a week and I expect to be down to my normal weight by September. (I've been here before thanks to my love of wine.. from whom I am now divorced!).

But, does any of this indicate a reversal or cure? It would be interesting to have a repeat of the 'lucozade' test, assuming that such a test is equally as valid now as it was originally.

 

[youngmanfrank]

The key benefit of the Newcastle Diet is that it normalises your insulin sensitivity,and in that sense you are "cured".In the long term if there is an underlying reason why you are insensitive to your own insulin and thus unable to control your blood sugars,then your insensitivity could return along with your diabetic blood sugar levels.The underlying reasons could include lifestyle,genetics,or ?

At the moment I have gone 18 months since completing the diet and I am still controlling my blood sugars normally within the range of accepted values for non-diabetics.I eat healthily,but in moderation,and excercise daily.I do not low carb,Atkins or any other diet,but I do try to choose low/medium GI foods over high GI.I have cut out cakes,biscuits and puddings almost entirely,but do eat lots of cheese,yoghurt,nuts and fruit.

I am going with my excellent diabetic nurse's judgement,that I have an underlying propensity towards diabetes but that if I maintain control of my diet and continue exercising there is no reason why I should return to a diabetic state.I am encouraged by the ongoing survey of patients who have had gastric band surgery.I am told that after five years approximately 75% of these still have not relapsed into diabetes.

For me the frustration of this whole diabetic thing is that nobody can pin point what is causing the increase in the numbers with diabetes.You could fill an A4 sheet with the theories,most of which can be disproved by individual experiences and which are sometimes simply contradictory.

 

[Yorksman]

But, does any of this indicate a reversal or cure? It would be interesting to have a repeat of the 'lucozade' test, assuming that such a test is equally as valid now as it was originally.

In the strictest sense of the word, it can never be reversed because the beta cells that have died cannot be recovered. However, it can be cured in the sense that further beta cell death can be halted. Until recently, health professionals have held the view that beta cell loss was inevitable and would continue and the best that could be achieved was to slow it down. As an unknown amount of beta cell mass has been lost, even if further loss is halted and normal function is restored, it is important not to overstress what is left.

Complete reversal of any condition however is rare. We lose function with the ageing process as it is, eyesight, balance, speed, hearing etc. not to mention hair or teeth :mrgreen:

 

[Anonymous]

But, does any of this indicate a reversal or cure? It would be interesting to have a repeat of the 'lucozade' test, assuming that such a test is equally as valid now as it was originally.

In the strictest sense of the word, it can never be reversed because the beta cells that have died cannot be recovered. However, it can be cured in the sense that further beta cell death can be halted. Until recently, health professionals have held the view that beta cell loss was inevitable and would continue and the best that could be achieved was to slow it down. As an unknown amount of beta cell mass has been lost, even if further loss is halted and normal function is restored, it is important not to overstress what is left.

Complete reversal of any condition however is rare. We lose function with the ageing process as it is, eyesight, balance, speed, hearing etc. not to mention hair or teeth :mrgreen:

So, a better word would be 'remission' rather than reversal ... pedantry ... another sign of ageing! 8)

 

[Sunshine_Kisses]

Not to be overly simplistic or ignorant, but is it possible for the beta cells to regenerate? I only ask as I know many other parts of the body 'refresh' themselves ie skin, blood cells etc - and things like the liver, even if totally abused and on its last legs through alcohol abuse, can still be revived as it renews itself after a period of time... Apologies for my very simple and probably incorrect terminology here - I was only half listening when they taught this stuff in school :-D


Diagnosed Type 2, 22nd Feb 2013
Hba1c 7.5
Three month trial of managing through diet & exercise - low-ish carb, pescatarian and attempting to become a runner ;-)

 

[Yorksman]

Not to be overly simplistic or ignorant, but is it possible for the beta cells to regenerate?

It's a very good and interesting question. New beta cells do grow and die rather like you suggest and even the total volume appears to increase with demand, for example in pregnancy. However there are regulatory mechanisms which control this growth and it is these mechanisms which become impaired so, as some die, not enough are grown to compensate. How these mechanisms work is not fully understood. Cells growing in an uncontrolled manner is the sort of thing that cancer research is involved in and type 1 diabetes is caused by the body's autoimmune system attacking the new beta cells as if they were foreign bodies. There is a lot of research literature on this.

This is from 2005, Type 2 Diabetes - a Matter of Beta Cell Life and Death:

In type 2 diabetes, the b-cells of the pancreas fail to produce enough insulin to meet the body’s demand, in part because of an acquired decrease in b-cell mass. In adults, pancreatic b-cell mass is controlled by several mechanisms, including b-cell replication, neogenesis, hypertrophy, and survival. Here, I discuss evidence supporting the notion that increased b-cell apoptosis is an important factor contributing to b-cell loss and the onset of type 2 diabetes. Interestingly, a key signaling molecule that promotes b-cell growth and survival, insulin receptor substrate 2 (IRS-2), is a member of a family of proteins whose inhibition contributes to the development of insulin resistance in the liver and other insulin-responsive tissues. Thus, the IRS-2 pathway appears to be a crucial participant in the tenuous balance between effective pancreatic b-cell mass and insulin resistance.

I have emboldened the part which mentions the liver because Roy Taylor asserts that it is increased triglycerides in the liver which causes increased triglycerides in the pancreas which in turn leads to a loss of beta cells function.

But, most of the actual studies are done on mice and rats so, we can't be too sure.


But the possibility of regeneration is something which is being studied. From 2008, Determinants of pancreatic beta-cell regeneration:

The molecular triggers for enhanced beta-cell proliferation during recovery from diabetes and for activation of embryonic-type endocrine progenitors remain unknown and represent key challenges for future research. Taken together, recent data suggest that regenerative therapy for diabetes may be a realistic goal.

 

[Sunshine_Kisses]

All very, very interesting, thank you Yorksman... It would make sense to me that other factors, such as the liver, comes into play... It's why focusing on getting my whole body healthy and working efficiently is my aim... A health professional friend of mine said eating the wrong foods (for you) is akin to putting petrol in a diesel car, and that if you find the right 'fuel' for you (as rather like cars, we can be different in what we run best on) then you can run like a ferrari... I don't know if I'll ever get to Ferrari level but something a bit nippier than a wobbly bicycle would be good :-D

PS were you a doctor in a past life? Your knowledge is incredible! I've seen in previous posts that you've said it's all self research but I've done *loads* of reading these past few months but not seen half the stuff you've clearly read - you obviously have a skill for it


Diagnosed Type 2, 22nd Feb 2013
Hba1c 7.5
Three month trial of managing through diet & exercise - low-ish carb, pescatarian and attempting to become a runner ;-)

 

[Yorksman]

I've seen in previous posts that you've said it's all self research

My wife is a biomedical scientist working in blood sciences so she points me in the right direction. In addition, I just try to stick to the research publications and follow the associated links.

By the way, your friend who advises you to find out what works for you is very likely giving you good advice as dietary requirements are in all probability specific to one of many different population groups. I personally doubt the existence of one diet fits all. The branch is called Nutrigenomics and Nutrigenetics which holds that our genetic make up is a major determinant in what we should or should not eat and we are of course very different genetically.

Nutrigenomics and nutrigenetics: the emerging faces of nutrition.
"The creation of nutrigenomics and nutrigenetics, two fields with distinct approaches to elucidate the interaction between diet and genes but with a common ultimate goal to optimize health through the personalization of diet, provide powerful approaches to unravel the complex relationship between nutritional molecules, genetic polymorphisms, and the biological system as a whole."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16195369

low-ish carb, pescatarian and attempting to become a runner

I had a fish week and it resulted in my lowest set of readings to date. The reduction really was noticeable. I'm trying to incorporate two fish days a week now plus one vegetarian day.

something a bit nippier than a wobbly bicycle would be good

Wobbly would be good. I need stabilisers these days.

 

[Sunshine_Kisses]

Lol! Well even stabalisers are a start!

Ah, how very handy to have a spouse 'in the know' - you must thank her on all our behalfs

I completely agree that we must all have variants that work for our make-up - we're all so different that I think it would be quite odd if we all needed exactly the same things... I think some things are loosely speaking a given (eat your veggies, try not to have too much refined stuff etc) but beyond that I really believe we're all quite different. I have friends that are vegan and raw, which works great for them, but I have other friends who have tried to be vegan and literally looked pale, sickly and generally ill as a result. It doesn't mean we should all be vegan as it really works for my one friend, nor should we all be meat eaters as it works for my other friend. We should all be whatever works for us, IMHO

As for the fish - it's definitely the thing that keeps my blood sugars most stable, so I pretty much have fish or seafood every night for dinner now (as evening meals are still the most likely time of the day I'll have higher readings so having fish seems to help)... Though, after three months without sugar, have recently had two very odd occasions where I had fish for my main meal, then puddings (full on cream / chocolate and sugar desserts) and both times I've had some of my best evening and following morning readings - so I'm stumped as to what that's about?! Any ideas, oh wise one...?


Diagnosed Type 2, 22nd Feb 2013
Hba1c 7.5
Three month trial of managing through diet & exercise - low-ish carb, pescatarian and attempting to become a runner ;-)

 

[Yorksman]

both times I've had some of my best evening and following morning readings - so I'm stumped as to what that's about?

I have no idea but have experienced it myself, for example, a christmas pudding at a belated dinner a couple of months ago, an ice cream in Morecambe, not even a flicker.

Unfortunately, it goes the other way too, occasional high readings where I am really stumped as to the cause. There will be a reason but I don't know anyone who would know it. Just as long as it is not too often.

 

[Sunshine_Kisses]

Hmm, curiouser and curiouser... Have you actually had something sweet which has caused a high blood sugar reading afterwards...? My mum has this theory that by cutting out all sugars my pancreas is kinda taking a nap cos it doesn't have much to do - and that by having a little bit of sugar, it sort of wakes it up and reminds it what it should be doing... Do you think that could be possible...?


Diagnosed Type 2, 22nd Feb 2013
Hba1c 7.5
Three month trial of managing through diet & exercise - low-ish carb, pescatarian and attempting to become a runner ;-)

 

[Yorksman]

My mum has this theory that by cutting out all sugars my pancreas is kinda taking a nap cos it doesn't have much to do - and that by having a little bit of sugar, it sort of wakes it up and reminds it what it should be doing...

That's sort of what happens. When carbohydrates are ingested, various trigger mechanisms are initiated and the pancreas produces insulin. This is one of the many processes that can go wrong with diabetes, it doesn't happen quick enough, there is not enough of it or it is not of 'good quality' for want of a better term. When glucose levels fall below a certain level, other counter trigger mechanisms should shut production off. Things can go wrong with those too. Also, exactly what you eat has an effect, eating some protein with carbohydrate for example.

As to my own funny readings, the highs (for me that is) in the evening that I have had of late seem to precede a sudden drop in weight, which lags behind.