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Help please for BG levels in oldies & low carb/protein problems

Foxytina

Member
Messages
10
Type of diabetes
Type 1
I have been type1 for 47 years, with no complications. HbA1c usually pretty good and has ranged from 40-46 in the past 5 years. I take Humalog bolus and Tresiba basal and have been using the Libre since it was first launched. I do not use insulin/carb ratios. My maths is hopeless and I've always got by with guesswork, which has served me well.

Most of my life I have suffered with an eating disorder (food craving) and developed a serious weight problem. At my worst I weighed 19 stone (120.5kg). How I continued to control my blood sugars during that time, I will never know. Approx 4 years ago I discovered low carb eating and have never looked back. How I wish I had known about this in my teens. I have lost 4.5st (28.5kg), have managed to keep the weight off for 3 years and have never felt better, although I do still need to lose another stone (6.3kg).

Over the past year I’ve developed a bit of carb creep. I decided to cut back and at the same time try to lose the next stone. I am seeking advice because my blood sugars have started rising in the late evenings, anywhere between 7-10. By this time my Humalog will be spent, so it's not covering me for the whole evening. I usually take an adjustment dose of 1-2 units between 10-12pm. The adjustment usually brings me back down to 5-6. I don’t think my basal is at fault. I take 7 units of Tresiba at bedtime and have a very steady line throughout the night. If I increase it by 1 unit I go too low in the night, so that isn’t the answer.

I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure my problem is due to the low carb and my body converting protein into glucose. I eat approximately 50 grams of carbs per day. My evening meal is between 15-20 grams. I do not want to increase carbs because I want to lose weight. I did try strict keto when I first started low carb eating. I managed for two months, but when I discovered I couldn’t control my blood sugars, I changed to low carb. At that time I had no idea the body can convert protein to sugar. Not being able to control my blood sugars properly at that time made me change from keto to low carb. That has worked well for 3-4 years.

With my current problem I thought maybe the answer would be that I needed a longer acting bolus insulin with my evening meal. I discussed this with the DSN at the hospital clinic. To my amazement she told me my figures are nothing to worry about and are in line with guidelines for someone of my age (I am 72). Having spent 47 years trying to keep my blood sugars within the 4-7 range I was appalled to be told that a reading of 8 or 9 was perfectly acceptable and I didn’t need to make any changes. She said there is no reason to change insulin.

I was also told that my HbA1c was too low and for my age the guideline is 58 and that is what I should be aiming at. I have always understood the guideline to be 48 and have worked hard to keep to, or below that level. After 47 years I am finding this extremely stressful and I really don’t understand why being in the “70”s age bracket should make a difference. I can’t seem to find any evidence as to why an older person should change daily and long term targets. I’ve been told it’s to do with preventing falls from hypos. Well surely one cap doesn’t fit all? I am fit and able and no more likely to fall now than when I was 69. If I were feeble and less mobile then I would accept this as a concern, but I cannot see how this applies to me or others of my age group who live healthy and active lives.

I really am feeling stressed by what the DSN has told me. I would so appreciate some advice on any of the above. Apologies for the lengthy post.
To summarise:
1) Is a blood sugar level of 7-9 (sometimes 10) late evening, acceptable?

2) I would appreciate some advice about why my blood sugars are rising late evening. Is this down to protein and if so, how do I cover for the unknown? (I have looked at Richard Benstein on youtube. All he says is “you need to cover for protein”. Not very helpful!).

3) Is an HbA1C of 58 really acceptable? Am I making a fuss unnecessarily?

I also apologise if I have more than one thread here, but as they are interlinked I hope I’m not breaking forum rules.
Thankyou in advance.
 
Foxytina, first congratulations on sticking with it for 47 years and still trying to maintain control.

In answer to your questions, my opinion is;

1) Maybe but it depends on what happens later. The Libre has shown me that I need that level to cope with the gradual slope towards a dip at 4am - anything less and the alarms go off. My basal is correct as reducing it causes Dawn Phenomenon spikes. The other thing to try is to change your pre-bolus time as you may need to reduce it to make the bolus kick in a little later to match the spike.

2) From what I have read, with lower carb approaches you do have to start accounting for protein intake. Have a read on some of the forums as there are calculators available to judge insulin ratios.

3) The ideal A1C is what you personally aim for. Many DSN's rely on information more relevant to T2D often gleaned from studies decades old, and the impact of the rapid improvement in tech capabilities and consequent management of T1D has not yet been validated by new studies. The trend for higher a1c in older folk was intended to combat loss of hypo awareness due to "age & long term nerve damage" which of course cgm & fgm can now alert us to.

Hope this helps a little
 
If you have a CGM then I'd say the risk of you collapsing from an unexpected hypo is pretty low, especially as you still have hypo awareness.

My hba1c last year after 2 bouts of covid was 58 and I was told that was fine. I didn't think it was, but just assumed the DSN was being positive because there's no point in making a fuss when I was already feeling rough. I have a feeling they are supposed to be positive and motivating and not concentrate on a number over quality of life.

I don't think we always know why our BG level rises. I get a rise at midday even without food so just knock it on the head with a couple of units of Novorapid. You sound like you're prepared for your evening rise so I would just keep doing what works.
 
I've been diabetic since age 8 in 1960, and I've always been told that under 10 is fine... (OK, left UK in 1999 before I could do a DAFNE couese, but Australia and NZ have been the same).

I was advised to keep my hba1c above 50 after I started to lose hypo awareness at lower levels...

I wouldn't be happy at 58 but my T2 dad (aged 92) is absolutely fine with that restriction and it isn't going to be the T2 that kills him. (Yes, I appreciate I am cross posting T2 to T1).

I think the issue is that for a lot of older people (80?) a fall (and a broken hip/leg etc) is literally a death sentence, they don' recover from it and are dead in 6 months (true for my MIL).

I'm guessing that the doctors are playing a numbers game here. Once you reach a certain age long term diabetic complications are less severe than short term damage from a hypo.

Yes, it may not fit your personal circumstances, but on average for a large number of T1s that approach saves lives (presumably,hopefully)
And I also think that the medical system hasn't yet fully adjusted for the efffect of cgms.

And I haven't seen my diabetic clinic since I turned 60 and won't be surprised (discouraged maybe) if they start to treat me as "old" when I next go. Last time I went I noticed that they were starting to doubt my numeracy.

And @Foxytina I only wish my hba1c results were as good as yours.

As for weight loss, I was on the overweight/obese borderline for about 10 years (age 50 plus). The only thing that prevented weight gain was moderate low carbing. (Less than 100g per day), I'm too lazy to worry about protein and also like carbs a bit too much?
Last year I finally lost 7kg (half way to target weight) by a combination of exercise and restricting cheese and alcohol. (of course, if you don't have any low carb very calorific indulgences this probably won't help, and I fully appreciate the destructive power of eating disorders and the achievement involved in defeating/managing one. All kudos to you, and I don't have any easy answers.
 
I am a T2D and not an insulin user. But I am elderly. I too had a similar shock when I was in hospital awaiting a heart related procedure. I was trying to adjust eatwell hospital food to meet my Low Carb WOE. but the staff insited that my target should be 12 mmol/l. Above 20 mmol/l and the alarmbells went off and they put me on insulin drip, and below 10 they force fed me digestive biscuits. The consultant had kittens when I showed an FBG of 5.6. The hospital consultant only deals with insulin therapy patients, and it was his ward.

These targets were I thought treating me as a T1D, but it seems deeper than that.
The NICE guidelines for T2D have been revised in 2009 to make the target HbA1c for the elderly and anyone using a hypoglycemic medication like insulin or a sulfonyl.

Age is relevant to HbA1c
The NICE guidelines ignores this inconvenient 'fact' and applies one rule for all.

Well done with your progress. The NICE Guidelines say that the treatment plan should be one that takes the patients views into consideration, but I think most HCP's seem to skip over that bit. The HbA1c is supposed to be one thst is acheivable without hypo's. but this is also overriden by the 56 value in another secton. I am currently in dispute with my GP who wants me to raise my HbA1c from 46 to 56 at next review, or he will stop treating med with diabetes medication and test strips. Technically if I register a not diabetic HbA1c then he is allowed to do this since I would no longer be diabetic. If I was younger than 60 I would also lose my free prescriptions (UK) I would also lose my annual review, and my retinopathy screening.
 
Thankyou everyone for your advice and experiences. I understand the need to start sleep with a slightly raised level if you dip in the night, but I don’t have that problem. I have also tried delaying my bolus but I spiked almost immediately I’d eaten and wasn’t comfortable to have a raised BS all evening. The Humalog peaks at 2 hours and drops off pretty quickly after that. I’ve also tried splitting the dose but no luck there either. I think I will continue with the late evening adjustments and keep quiet about it at my next appointment! Despite this being frowned upon it seems to work for me, though I do resent the additional injections. I will also try to disregard the higher HbA1C to reduce stress levels. Thankyou also for the pointer about the protein issue. I will have a search and hopefully learn how to deal with this. All advice and suggestions have been greatly appreciated.
 
Thankyou everyone for your advice and experiences. I understand the need to start sleep with a slightly raised level if you dip in the night, but I don’t have that problem. I have also tried delaying my bolus but I spiked almost immediately I’d eaten and wasn’t comfortable to have a raised BS all evening. The Humalog peaks at 2 hours and drops off pretty quickly after that. I’ve also tried splitting the dose but no luck there either. I think I will continue with the late evening adjustments and keep quiet about it at my next appointment! Despite this being frowned upon it seems to work for me, though I do resent the additional injections. I will also try to disregard the higher HbA1C to reduce stress levels. Thankyou also for the pointer about the protein issue. I will have a search and hopefully learn how to deal with this. All advice and suggestions have been greatly appreciated.
The hack for protein I have seen in the Forum by other users is that if using a low carb / keto diet, and where protein is apparently a problem. then they add in the protein grams at 50% so count protein grams at half strength along with the carb content. I have no personal experience of this.
 
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