Higher in the morning...

[helga_t75]

Sorry, am I missing something? Isn't an HbA1c of 40/41 very, very good? And isn't a 'spike' of 6.7 also very, very good?

 

[jamesalex]

I received a letter from doc saying diabetes seems like it's in remission since July 2016....but this increase from 40 to 41 on the HBA1C and my waking BG readings of 6.7 when they were 4.5 night before concerned me. Knowing now that the HBA1C diabetes test in the morning is irrelevant has alleviated a little of the concern.

 

[Bluetit1802]

I received a letter from doc saying diabetes seems like it's in remission since July 2016....but this increase from 40 to 41 on the HBA1C and my waking BG readings of 6.7 when they were 4.5 night before concerned me.

As I said earlier, your HbA1c increase of just 1 point can be disregarded. If it is, for example 40.4 it will be rounded down. If it is 40.5 it will be rounded up. Then there is the error rate tolerance (somewhere around 4% I believe) On that issue you are worried about nothing.

Your 6.7 in the mornings has to be dawn phenomenon, which you said earlier you understand about. Your liver is supplying the glucose, and that glucose could be emanating from excess protein. Other factors cause it, such adrenalin and cortisone due to stress, restless nights, disturbed sleep, sleeping too long, sleeping too little. It's a mystery.

I have never had overnight DP. I wake the same as I go to bed, although I drop quite a lot when I'm asleep (My Libre sensor tells me this) My DP starts about 10 minutes after I get out of bed and before I do anything other than visit the bathroom, test, and go downstairs to put the kettle on. It used to continue to rise slowly until lunch time, making my pre-lunch test higher than my fasting and thus impacting on my post lunch readings. (again, my Libre sensor told me this). I experimented and discovered a coffee with lots of cream within 10 minutes of getting out of bed stopped this in its tracks, and I have nothing else apart from water and a mid morning cup of tea.. I now see pre-lunch readings lower than my fasting. I don't exercise other than dog walks and general household stuff. My HbA1c is the same as yours.

 

[ickihun]

I have, but then I read published papers which seem to counter this argument...

"The reason why protein does not increase blood glucose levels is unclear. Several possibilities might explain the response: a slow conversion of protein to glucose, less protein being converted to glucose and released than previously thought, glucose from protein being incorporated into hepatic glycogen stores but not increasing the rate of hepatic glucose release, or because the process of gluconeogenesis from protein occurs over a period of hours and glucose can be disposed of if presented for utilization slowly and evenly over a long time period".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9416027

I get higher bgs on whey protein powder milkshakes.
I am very very insulin resistant, always have been. Metformin helps a lot, when not giving me loose tum.
I've tried a few different manufacturers but all raise my bgs and fbg.

 

[GrantGam]

Average day about 125g protein. Intention is to build muscle mass so I have taken the 1g protein per pound of lean body mass approach. I weigh 65kg (143lbs)...I measured my BG before going to bed, about 6 hours after ingesting protein shakes and BG is usually 4.5-5.5 or so...I stopped the protein shakes for 2 weeks in September but even so, BG was always higher (6-7) upon waking.

Think you're being a bit too critical @jamesalex. Everything is fine, your HbA1c is decent - you just have slightly higher readings in the morning compared to the rest of the day that's all...

There is dawn phenomenon and there is also what's known as a "waking rise"; the latter is an increase in BG when we get out of bed. Both are entirely natural bodily responses, it's just it is more apparent in us diabetics. You may have one or the other, or both. Either way, the impact it's having on your BG is minimal in all respects - so just relax

At the end of the day, you are diabetic. Do not expect incredible linear results as it's impossible; regardless of diabetes type and/or treatment.

 

[jamesalex]

Update for those interested. Latest HBA1C has increased slightly to 43mmol/mol. Grrr. This is a bit of a a blow because my endocrinologist said he would sign me off after a year of normal readings.

I increased my weightlifting session to 3-4 per week in order to build more muscle mass. I increased protein and carb intake to accommodate the increase in training and to put on muscle mass. I started eating Jumbo rolled Oats for breakfast (20g carbs) and wholegrain rice (25g carbs) for every other lunch.. On training days I added 75g of dextrose powder pre/intra/post workouts. Despite these additions, my weight has remained consistent. I am what one would call a "hard gainer" it seems.Always self tested and had 5.2-6.7 MAX, average 5.7. Back to the drawing board. :-(

 

[Alison Campbell]

Going to tag @Mbaker and @Freema who both may have some good advice on managing type 2 while building mucles mass.

 

[Mbaker]

Hi @jamesalex, I have focused on heavy weights once I got back a decent basic fitness level. The protocol I have used has put on 4 kgs of muscle mass directly measured with Tanita scales (but previous mixed training would have added to my total); so my muscle mass is 75 kg out of 90 kg peak and lower 72 kg on a heavier cardio 2 weeks.

It is an interesting scenario your one, I feel there are several areas to possibly look at. Your window of eating might not be optimum for you as the latest time of 9, which is around the time the sleep hormone would begin to secrete and possibly impact your circadian rhythm, I eat up to 6. Are you getting enough sleep and what is the quality, I use my Fitbit to let me know if I am getting good deep sleep, if you are not this could be a contributing factor, as you would not be getting as much out of your weights after burn and a lack of sleep / quality increases insulin resistance and definitely can increase fasting blood sugar.
(

)
I do not use whey or anything similar, and I don't do any post workout supplementation. You might be having additional protein which could be stoking gluconeogenesis. I just eat a standard portion size of mainly fish (seabass, kippers, mackerel, halibut, salmon), with meat up to 2 times a week. I dropped oats (HbA1c of 41 and 42) for daily servings of nuts (7 types), berries, Greek full fat yogurt (HbA1c's of 35 and 36) and low carb vegetables. If I were you I would drop the dextrose and the rice. My protocol provides me with good recovery, the ability to train either 2 or 3 sessions before dinner inclusive of a gym based 30 minute Fight Klub cardio session, 15 to 20 minute rest (just to answer emails) 20 minute dumb bell compound HiiT session of weighted squats to bicep curl to shoulder press to front lunge with simultaneous opposing arm bicep curl, repeated on the opposing side - several repetitions (using 14, 16 and 18 kg dumb bells) followed by some more customer work and filter coffee, Jacuzzi. After dinner, I do my "finisher" which is compound Karate style workout i.e. 50 squats with block and punches on the accent and decent x 5 (for each type of block or punch), followed by a smaller round of the compound dumb bell workout. I have included this detail just to demonstrate recovery and muscle build on standard LCHF for between 5 and 7 times a week, without hunger or tiredness.

So in summary my advice would be possibly make your last meal of the day earlier, if you are not getting full qualitative sleep try to improve and track this with at least 7 hours. Consider if you really need the supplementation of protein, dextrose, the oats and rice, the latter 2 seem to be a contributory factor to your HbA1c to 43, so potentially easily fixed. I hope you nail your goals, but if all else fails you could try a little full bodied red wine with your last meal and some say cheese also suppresses a liver dump.

 

[ickihun]

Yes. A liver block would solve your problem.
Search forum for threads related to liver blocks. No thread title but definitely mentioned numerous times in numerous threads.

 

[jamesalex]

Going to tag @Mbaker and @Freema who both may have some good advice on managing type 2 while building mucles mass.

Thank you.

 

[Raghu_Nandan]

I am also facing similar issue ( I am T2 dx on meds with diabetic eye complications) , religiously doing strength training-3-4 days (moderate wights - dead lifts, squats and all) and cardio in evenings 1-2 days strictly on very low carb (less than 30) my protein macros are less compared to you around 60-65 .. i am usually in (4.5-5.2 mmol range) post complex body exercise usually in the night before going to bed ... and some time spikes in range of (6-6.5 ) in mornings but have observed it's mostly due to not sufficient sleep ..

To negate any impact of glucogensis due to excess protein ,if any, i am ensuring to take my protein during day time and not in evening and seeing some better results ...

At what time you take protien and workouts just try to alter timings ??

 

[Raghu_Nandan]

Regarding building muscle mass i have slightly gained some mass after 6-7 months of religious workout but still very less compare to any other non-diabetic i blame it partially on genes on diet and on in sufficient insulin but i am happy with my gains due to eye complications i need to be little cautious with weights ..b

 

[jamesalex]

Hi @jamesalex, I have focused on heavy weights once I got back a decent basic fitness level. The protocol I have used has put on 4 kgs of muscle mass directly measured with Tanita scales (but previous mixed training would have added to my total); so my muscle mass is 75 kg out of 90 kg peak and lower 72 kg on a heavier cardio 2 weeks.

It is an interesting scenario your one, I feel there are several areas to possibly look at. Your window of eating might not be optimum for you as the latest time of 9, which is around the time the sleep hormone would begin to secrete and possibly impact your circadian rhythm, I eat up to 6. Are you getting enough sleep and what is the quality, I use my Fitbit to let me know if I am getting good deep sleep, if you are not this could be a contributing factor, as you would not be getting as much out of your weights after burn and a lack of sleep / quality increases insulin resistance and definitely can increase fasting blood sugar.
(

)
I do not use whey or anything similar, and I don't do any post workout supplementation. You might be having additional protein which could be stoking gluconeogenesis. I just eat a standard portion size of mainly fish (seabass, kippers, mackerel, halibut, salmon), with meat up to 2 times a week. I dropped oats (HbA1c of 41 and 42) for daily servings of nuts (7 types), berries, Greek full fat yogurt (HbA1c's of 35 and 36) and low carb vegetables. If I were you I would drop the dextrose and the rice. My protocol provides me with good recovery, the ability to train either 2 or 3 sessions before dinner inclusive of a gym based 30 minute Fight Klub cardio session, 15 to 20 minute rest (just to answer emails) 20 minute dumb bell compound HiiT session of weighted squats to bicep curl to shoulder press to front lunge with simultaneous opposing arm bicep curl, repeated on the opposing side - several repetitions (using 14, 16 and 18 kg dumb bells) followed by some more customer work and filter coffee, Jacuzzi. After dinner, I do my "finisher" which is compound Karate style workout i.e. 50 squats with block and punches on the accent and decent x 5 (for each type of block or punch), followed by a smaller round of the compound dumb bell workout. I have included this detail just to demonstrate recovery and muscle build on standard LCHF for between 5 and 7 times a week, without hunger or tiredness.

So in summary my advice would be possibly make your last meal of the day earlier, if you are not getting full qualitative sleep try to improve and track this with at least 7 hours. Consider if you really need the supplementation of protein, dextrose, the oats and rice, the latter 2 seem to be a contributory factor to your HbA1c to 43, so potentially easily fixed. I hope you nail your goals, but if all else fails you could try a little full bodied red wine with your last meal and some say cheese also suppresses a liver dump.

Hi @Mbaker - Thank you very much for your detailed reply. Much appreciated. I'm going to bulletpoin...

1. Window of eating dinner - Varies between 7-9pm. Will try to make earlier.

2. Sleep - Last tracked sleep was 8 hours 34 mins using Samsung Health and S3 watch - my new toy! Actual sleep time 7h12m. Motionless 3h45. Light 4h30m. Actual sleep time 7h17min. 85% efficiency. This seems to be an average for me....although I dont wear the tracker every night...plus 8 month old baby sometimes wakes in the night/early morning, creating a break in sleep.

3. Whey and Casein - This has been my routine for the past year or so using organic grass fed 100% whey/casein protein powders. No flavours or anything else. When I first started taking these I would militant with taking my BG readings...remained perfect averaging 5.7 so I concluded these had either no effect or a positive one.

Mornings or pre-workout: 400ml water, 50g Whey protein isolate, 20g Oatbran (will remove now), 25g Dextrose powder (will remove now) 1 tblsp coconut oil, 1 tblsp peanut butter, 1.5g Taurine, 7.5g L-Glutamine, 5g cocoa powder, few blueberries and about a 5th of a banana.

Post Workout: Same as above however I take 5g Creatine Monohydrate with about 100ml Apple juice.

Pre-bed (to prevent catabolic state): As above, however I use 30g Micellar Casein Protein, not whey and do not add dextrose or oats.

I am going to drop the rolled oats for breakfast and return to full fat natural yog. No more rice for a while either.

The rest of my meals are either Keto or VLCHF.

Alcohol - Virtually none. I have lost the taste for it and it makes me feel awful these days...I have had a single shot of vodka in the past 3 months.

It all gets very confusing when adding bodybuilding into the equation, and obviously, a diabetic bodybuilder cannot follow the same nutritional rules as a non-diabetic as carbs, both simple and complex seem to be be a staple for them and a problem for us!

My weight training is pretty good - mainly compounds. I lift heavy and usually go hard (love a good beast mode session!) for my weight (65kg). I do splits twice per week ie chest/shoulders/legs/back and full body twice, or if I am suffering DOMS in another area. Minimal cardio - I call it sprint swimming - about 30mins per week (so as not to raise cortisol and go into muscle atrophy etc ). I walk about 8 miles per day, so I get plenty of cardio.

Basic lifts
105 kg squat
102.5 kg deadlift
62.5kg Bench

I'll keep everyone posted and THANK YOU ALL for your comments and assistance!

 

[jamesalex]

I am also facing similar issue ( I am T2 dx on meds with diabetic eye complications) , religiously doing strength training-3-4 days (moderate wights - dead lifts, squats and all) and cardio in evenings 1-2 days strictly on very low carb (less than 30) my protein macros are less compared to you around 60-65 .. i am usually in (4.5-5.2 mmol range) post complex body exercise usually in the night before going to bed ... and some time spikes in range of (6-6.5 ) in mornings but have observed it's mostly due to not sufficient sleep ..

To negate any impact of glucogensis due to excess protein ,if any, i am ensuring to take my protein during day time and not in evening and seeing some better results ...

At what time you take protien and workouts just try to alter timings ??

Hi @Raghu_Nandan - Sleep as per above. Protein taken either in morning, or if training that day 30mins pre/post workout. Micellar Casein just before bed...although not when HBA1C test the next morning

 

[Raghu_Nandan]

Hi @jamesalex, I have focused on heavy weights once I got back a decent basic fitness level. The protocol I have used has put on 4 kgs of muscle mass directly measured with Tanita scales (but previous mixed training would have added to my total); so my muscle mass is 75 kg out of 90 kg peak and lower 72 kg on a heavier cardio 2 weeks.

It is an interesting scenario your one, I feel there are several areas to possibly look at. Your window of eating might not be optimum for you as the latest time of 9, which is around the time the sleep hormone would begin to secrete and possibly impact your circadian rhythm, I eat up to 6. Are you getting enough sleep and what is the quality, I use my Fitbit to let me know if I am getting good deep sleep, if you are not this could be a contributing factor, as you would not be getting as much out of your weights after burn and a lack of sleep / quality increases insulin resistance and definitely can increase fasting blood sugar.
(

)
I do not use whey or anything similar, and I don't do any post workout supplementation. You might be having additional protein which could be stoking gluconeogenesis. I just eat a standard portion size of mainly fish (seabass, kippers, mackerel, halibut, salmon), with meat up to 2 times a week. I dropped oats (HbA1c of 41 and 42) for daily servings of nuts (7 types), berries, Greek full fat yogurt (HbA1c's of 35 and 36) and low carb vegetables. If I were you I would drop the dextrose and the rice. My protocol provides me with good recovery, the ability to train either 2 or 3 sessions before dinner inclusive of a gym based 30 minute Fight Klub cardio session, 15 to 20 minute rest (just to answer emails) 20 minute dumb bell compound HiiT session of weighted squats to bicep curl to shoulder press to front lunge with simultaneous opposing arm bicep curl, repeated on the opposing side - several repetitions (using 14, 16 and 18 kg dumb bells) followed by some more customer work and filter coffee, Jacuzzi. After dinner, I do my "finisher" which is compound Karate style workout i.e. 50 squats with block and punches on the accent and decent x 5 (for each type of block or punch), followed by a smaller round of the compound dumb bell workout. I have included this detail just to demonstrate recovery and muscle build on standard LCHF for between 5 and 7 times a week, without hunger or tiredness.

So in summary my advice would be possibly make your last meal of the day earlier, if you are not getting full qualitative sleep try to improve and track this with at least 7 hours. Consider if you really need the supplementation of protein, dextrose, the oats and rice, the latter 2 seem to be a contributory factor to your HbA1c to 43, so potentially easily fixed. I hope you nail your goals, but if all else fails you could try a little full bodied red wine with your last meal and some say cheese also suppresses a liver dump.

I have query i am also eating at 9.00 pm , so is it fine if i finish my dinner by 6-7 and then do work outs ? basically is it acceptable to do workout post meal ?

 

[Mbaker]

I have query i am also eating at 9.00 pm , so is it fine if i finish my dinner by 6-7 and then do work outs ? basically is it acceptable to do workout post meal ?

Absolutely @Raghu_Nandan, I have seen that my fasting blood sugar is between 3.9 and 4.5 with the additional weights (4.7 ish if I have cake around twice a month) - previously I was in the later 4's on walking mainly. Many go for walks only after the evening meal which has been proven to reduce blood sugars. I do the weights and walking (around 3 to 4 times a week now, I used to do more and may go back depending if I can reduce the fat mainly with weights).

 

[Raghu_Nandan]

Absolutely @Raghu_Nandan, I have seen that my fasting blood sugar is between 3.9 and 4.5 with the additional weights (4.7 ish if I have cake around twice a month) - previously I was in the later 4's on walking mainly. Many go for walks only after the evening meal which has been proven to reduce blood sugars. I do the weights and walking (around 3 to 4 times a week now, I used to do more and may go back depending if I can reduce the fat mainly with weights).

Cools thanks for your inputs i am planning to change my exercise regime soon may be will incorporate this thing too -to have meals first (i usually do light dinners- only salads) and then exercise ..hope that will help me in taming my FBG..

 

[jamesalex]

I have query i am also eating at 9.00 pm , so is it fine if i finish my dinner by 6-7 and then do work outs ? basically is it acceptable to do workout post meal ?

Sure I don't see any problem with workouts after dinner, however I found that i was a bit "pumped" which kept me up later. Some people say training first thing in the morning, fasted, cup of coffee works best for them.

 

[jamesalex]

Cools thanks for your inputs i am planning to change my exercise regime soon may be will incorporate this thing too -to have meals first (i usually do light dinners- only salads) and then exercise ..hope that will help me in taming my FBG..

I don't think you have to eat salads for dinner! I highly recommend www.dietdoctor.com for nutrition. Get your blood glucose under control and then, depending on goals you can play with the macronutrient and see how your react to changes.

 

[Mbaker]

Hi @Mbaker - Thank you very much for your detailed reply. Much appreciated. I'm going to bulletpoin...

1. Window of eating dinner - Varies between 7-9pm. Will try to make earlier.

2. Sleep - Last tracked sleep was 8 hours 34 mins using Samsung Health and S3 watch - my new toy! Actual sleep time 7h12m. Motionless 3h45. Light 4h30m. Actual sleep time 7h17min. 85% efficiency. This seems to be an average for me....although I dont wear the tracker every night...plus 8 month old baby sometimes wakes in the night/early morning, creating a break in sleep.

3. Whey and Casein - This has been my routine for the past year or so using organic grass fed 100% whey/casein protein powders. No flavours or anything else. When I first started taking these I would militant with taking my BG readings...remained perfect averaging 5.7 so I concluded these had either no effect or a positive one.

Mornings or pre-workout: 400ml water, 50g Whey protein isolate, 20g Oatbran (will remove now), 25g Dextrose powder (will remove now) 1 tblsp coconut oil, 1 tblsp peanut butter, 1.5g Taurine, 7.5g L-Glutamine, 5g cocoa powder, few blueberries and about a 5th of a banana.

Post Workout: Same as above however I take 5g Creatine Monohydrate with about 100ml Apple juice.

Pre-bed (to prevent catabolic state): As above, however I use 30g Micellar Casein Protein, not whey and do not add dextrose or oats.

I am going to drop the rolled oats for breakfast and return to full fat natural yog. No more rice for a while either.

The rest of my meals are either Keto or VLCHF.

Alcohol - Virtually none. I have lost the taste for it and it makes me feel awful these days...I have had a single shot of vodka in the past 3 months.

It all gets very confusing when adding bodybuilding into the equation, and obviously, a diabetic bodybuilder cannot follow the same nutritional rules as a non-diabetic as carbs, both simple and complex seem to be be a staple for them and a problem for us!

My weight training is pretty good - mainly compounds. I lift heavy and usually go hard (love a good beast mode session!) for my weight (65kg). I do splits twice per week ie chest/shoulders/legs/back and full body twice, or if I am suffering DOMS in another area. Minimal cardio - I call it sprint swimming - about 30mins per week (so as not to raise cortisol and go into muscle atrophy etc ). I walk about 8 miles per day, so I get plenty of cardio.

Basic lifts
105 kg squat
102.5 kg deadlift
62.5kg Bench

I'll keep everyone posted and THANK YOU ALL for your comments and assistance!

@jamesalex just appreciated that you are focusing on body building as opposed to just weight training. In my mid twenties I was benching 150 kg at circa 85 kg, which I could do strength wise, but my wrists were not conditioned so would hurt, I also developed piles due to the straining, so now I max at 100 kg, and train at 50 kg slow and under tension. Your stats are good for your weight.

If you get the opportunity have a watch of "The Perfect Physique" it's on Netflix. In case you don't know about this documentary it is about 10 competitors who are a modern slimmer build equivalent of the Arnie type body builder - the link is that one of these guys is Type 1 diabetic (Jason Poston, diagnosed at 30 mmol, wow), he low carbs high fats. Interesting discussions on carb cycling, fasted cardio, time under tension, healthy fats, supplements, cheat meals etc.