How long for Metformin to show the effects

[Rachox]

So you don't have diabetes, but you do test your blood and take Metformin. You don't want to adopt a LCHF approach, but you will come to a forum that openly promotes such a thing to try to debunk us. You do want an evidence-based discussion, but you won't accept anyone's research except your own. You imply we're somehow all looking to vindicate our own pre-conceptions while determinedly defending your own. You will quote a dietary body's guidance as "pure science" while cheerfully ignoring who funded, interpreted and then publicised said science.

This is the point where I wish you the very best of luck and bow out of the conversation. May your path, whichever you choose, bring you health and happiness.

Sock x

I agree. I think this is the point where ittiandro and I will have to agree to differ!

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

Saying that CHO’s turn into sugar and therefore diabetics should drastically reduce ( or eliminate them?) is a bit of a simplistic rationale

It may be simplistic, but it is quite true. If you don't believe it, try an experiment: eat a high carb meal, then test your blood glucose level an hour later and 2 hours later. Next, try eating a steak or bacon and eggs or some other high fat meal devoid of starch and measure your blood glucose an hour later and 2 hours later. After you've done that, report back whether we're right or you're right.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

If you can get your blood glucose to normal levels by following your doctor's advice or Diabetes Canada's advice without meds, I'd be very surprised. Let us know how you make out, though. Good luck!

 

[Guzzler]

Saying that CHO’s turn into sugar and therefore diabetics should drastically reduce ( or eliminate them?) is a bit of a simplistic rationale: if CHO’s turn into sugar, as they do, so do fats, albeit perhaps with a different bio-chemical process. .

In fact, a clinical study done by a number of Australian universities in collaboration with reputed American Universities, including Harvard University (http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/diacare/38/6/1008.full.pdf ) reported that dietary fat modified postprandial glycemia.

Quote

Evidence suggests that meals containing carbohydrates and that are high in dietary fat cause sustained late postprandial hyperglycemia. One study showed the addition of 35 g dietary fat significantly increased postprandial glucose concentrations by 2.3 mmol/L at 5 h (15). Wolpert et al. (19) demonstrated that the addition of 50 g fat caused significant hyperglycemia over 5 h, even when additional insulin was administered using a closed-loop glucose control system.

Free fatty acids (FFAs) directly induce insulin resistance, and one study postulated that the mechanism for the delayed hyperglycemic effect of dietary fat is FFA-induced insulin resistance with increased hepatic glucose output (20). Consistent with the observed time course of hyperglycemia following higher-fat meals in type 1

Unquote

One can always argue that there are perhaps other clinical studies indicating the opposite.I searched the Internet , though, and I couldn’t find any .

Be it as it may, I don't know how much more credible are the no-carbs sources you mentioned, than the Australian clinical study warning against the dangers of fats as well as the D.C. recommendation of a minimum daily CHO intake of 130 g, with the all-important distinction between low-GI and high- GI. CHO's .

Again, the premiss that CHO’s are to be reduced or avoided by diabetics as much as possible because they turn into sugar is faulty : it is based on the wrong assumption that fats do not turn into sugar. They do! They may do it with a different biochemical process than CHO’s, but if fats affect post-prandial glycemia, as the above-mentioned clinical study indicates, this is the best evidence that fats, in the end, do turn into sugar, hence.bottom line , they are just as bad as the CHO’s are, in the eyes of some. ..

At best, even if low CHO’s may improve glycemia, at the receiving end replacing them with fats presens other serious risks ( high “ bad” cholesterol, etc) .

As to questioning the guidelines of organizations like Diabetes Canada or other similar governmental organizations, like Health Canada or similar ones in other countries, on the ground that their pro-CHO's recommendations are dictated by commercial interests, with all due respect, I think this is an all too easy excuse to vindicate one's own pre-conceptions . William James spoke of a " will to believe" , a " no-matter-what" will that goes counter facts and scientific evidence.
I don’t know if the no-CHO's argument is more solid than saying that fats do not turn into sugar……
I am sure that real experts, like medical doctors or medical trained health professionals, don't read these Forums. If they did, I am also sure they would not agree with contentions like this..

A Forum like this is wonderful, in that it allows people to exchange their experiences, give comfort to some in their illness and perhaps clarify some issues, but when it comes to medical advice or prescribing diets, I still think one should exert some caution and rely, rather, on doctors and other qualified health personnel.

One final note: the analogy of diabetes with an allergy (sugar allergy?!) is questionable.

Medically, an allergy is the reaction of the immune system to substances in the environment that are harmless for most people. In the case of diabetes it is either insulin resistance or failure of the pancreas to produce insulin, in both cases we are faced with pathologies that have nothing to do with an allergy..

Ittiandro

Some of your understanding of the metabolic processes is lacking. Fats cause a neglible rise in the majority of people. Protein causes a slight rise in the majority of people. Carbs cause a spike in the majority of people.
As it is the prolonged incidence of spikes that we as people with Diabetes must avoid if we are to lessen the risk of complications then it stands to reason that some measure of lowered carb intake makes absolute sense.

 

[ittiandro]

ittiandro
Low carb diet has worked for me! There I’ve said it! Why? Because it’s true!
Not only has it controlled my blood sugars and reduced my HbA1c from 70 at diagnosis to mid 30s (non diabetic level), I have lost over 5 stone (over 32kgs or around 70lbs) in weight, I have way more energy and feel very much healthier than before diagnosis.
To add to this my GP supports my decision to control my diabetes this way.

I am sure it worked for you, but as I said in an earlier post, the problem is to prove the causal link between your low CHO' s diet and your weight loss or HbA1c reduction. It is not because one event ( lower sugar, decreased weight) follows another ( decrease in CHO's) that the two are necessarily causally related.. However tempting for the layman it may be to draw such a conclusion, it mat still be scientifically questionable.
With your weight ( 112 kg) any decrease in food intake, regardless of the CHO's factor, is likely to induce substantial weight loss! At 85 kg, I'd never be able to shed 20 kg just by decreasing the CHO' quantity, but a a seriously overweight 115 kg individual is more likely to lose 20 or even 30 kg, if anything because a substantial part of weight is due to excess water. and the initial weight loss is mostly water.

Ittiandro

 

[Guzzler]

I am sure it worked for you, but as I said in an earlier post, the problem is to prove the causal link between your low CHO' s diet and your weight loss or HbA1c reduction. It is not because one event ( lower sugar, decreased weight) follows another ( decrease in CHO's) that the two are necessarily causally related.. However tempting for the layman it may be to draw such a conclusion, it mat still be scientifically questionable.
With your weight ( 112 kg) any decrease in food intake, regardless of the CHO's factor, is likely to induce substantial weight loss! At 85 kg, I'd never be able to shed 20 kg just by decreasing the CHO' quantity, but a a seriously overweight 115 kg individual is more likely to lose 20 or even 30 kg, if anything because a substantial part of weight is due to excess water. and the initial weight loss is mostly water.

Ittiandro

With that in mind what are your thoughts on MONW?

 

[ittiandro]

Some of your understanding of the metabolic processes is lacking. Fats cause a neglible rise in the majority of people. Protein causes a slight rise in the majority of people. Carbs cause a spike in the majority of people.
As it is the prolonged incidence of spikes that we as people with Diabetes must avoid if we are to lessen the risk of complications then it stands to reason that some measure of lowered carb intake makes absolute sense.

If you question my understanding of the metabolic processes regarding fat metabolism, then you must question in the first place the clinical studies conducted by reputed Universities on this issue, such as the Australian one I mentioned.. : you should explain why it is not true that fat absorption significantly increases postprandial sugar levels. I'd bow to your opinion if , instead of being perhaps a self-taught diabetic and, most likely, an educated person, you were ABOVE ALL( and more importantly) a medical doctor or a professional scientific researcher.
People around seems to give more credence to self-styled nurses or perhaps unqualified health gurus than to medical doctors, professional clinical studies and the scientific establishment...There is a lot of hearsay going around. Mine is perhaps hearsay, too, but at least it comes from qualified medical sources, which only trained medical professionals are qualified to challenge .

Ittiandro

 

[ittiandro]

I'm in Canada as well. After I was diagnosed I met with a nurse specializing in diabetes care. She told me to follow the Canada Food guide (i.e. high carb/low fat) and exercise at least 150 minutes a week. She looked me in the eye and informed that if I follow this advice, my glycemic control will slowly deteriorate over time, I'll be be prescribed increasingly powerful diabetic meds until eventually I'll be put on insulin, then I'll likely die from diabetic complications. They know this will happen because that's what happens to every type 2 diabetic patient who follows their advice. Great advice!!

I decided to ignore her advice and now, 4 years later, I am on no meds and my blood glucose levels are normal. I no longer require expenditure of tax money on my diabetes. They can use the money on other people. And I'm as healthy as I've ever been in my life.

Although I consume much less than 130 g of carbs per day (probably around 10g from eggs and milk), I can assure you that my brain function is quite excellent. I have a highly technical career and have not been fired yet. I even got a raise last year. Why does Diabetes Canada believe we need to consume 130 g of carbs a day for proper brain function? I really don't know but they are patently incorrect.

Your blood glucose levels are worryingly high. Mine are normal. With all due respect I will not be following your advice.

I urge you to reconsider your approach. Do not be afraid to reduce your carb intake. Perhaps it will work for you as well.

You should ask yourself: "why do so many people on this forum favour a low carb diet?" Also do a little research on clinical studies of low carb diets with respect to type 2 diabetes. There is plenty of scientific evidence supporting what to me is quite obvious: type 2 is a disease where the principal manifestation is an inability to process carbohydrates properly and reducing carb intake is the principal way to treat it.

Getting hot!

NoCrbs4Me, I am surprised that your nurse should challenge the Canada Food Guide and Diabetes Canada recommendations and go as far as warning that you’d die if you followed them…

Usually professional nurses have adequate medical knowledge and are too tuned in with the medical establishment and the scientific knowledge behind it to openly challenge in such a way some of the more basic medical recommendations regarding health and diet.

Be it as it may, a nurse doesn’t have by definition the same training of a medical doctor and I would not take her advice without seeing a doctor first.

If you saw one, I’m sure he or she would openly discredit your nurse’s opinion as well as discourage any self-diagnosis or, worse, any dietary changes without consulting a doctor.

I don’t deny that some doctors may not be fully competent or that they may be on the…payroll of pharmaceutical companies or other commercial entities, but as a general rule, doctors don’t engage in foul play and are definitely more competent than nurses to diagnose health conditions and make dietary recommendations, even though they may be fully competent AS NURSES.

I also think that between a nurse , however specialized in diabetes she may be, and clinical studies such as the one I mentioned earlier, which recommend an adequate amount of CHO’s and warn against the dangers of excess fats, one should always heed the advice of professional doctors… Why you seem to follow a different path, it escapes me.

By the way you mention clinical studies supporting the low CHO’s diet. If you have read some, I’d appreciate you letting me know..

Incidentally, the 130 g/day of CHO’s recommended by the medical establishment, are just a minimum and by no stretch of the imagination can such a minimum be considered as dangerously HIGH.. Just think: roughly, 130 g/day of CHO’s correspond to a bowl of oatmeal and a few slices of bread, hardly an excessive quantity..

I must confess, though, that I perhaps go over this minimum, as I tend to indulge in bread and I do eat boiled rice more often than not, as my wife is Vietnamese and rice is the main staple for oriental people .

I should add, though, that my safety valve is that I also exercise a lot : when I come back from the gym, after 45 minutes of treadmill or swimming 3 times a week , or after jogging in the summer on the magnificent Mount-Royal Park in the heart of Montreal, my b.s. is down to 6.3! And it is certainly not high at 7.5-8 2hrs after a meal.

Sometimes, rarely, it spikes to 11 or so after a meal or at wake-up,( probably due to the dawn-effect) but it promptly goes down during the day.. I keep track of all my self-test results with the meter: my b.s. is the same as one year ago, in spite of my CHO’s intake.

My doctor knows this very well. Actually I have been seeing her at least 3 times a year for the last 20 years .

To counter your objection that my blood sugar is very high, I'll just say that a fasting blood sugar of 7.3 ( or even 6.3 after exercise) and 8.5 or even 9 after a meal are not HIGH by any stretch of imagination.The glucose self-tests as well as frequent blood tests at the lab and a few glucose tolerance tests at the hospital have not revealed anything more serious than a borderline hyperglycemia, which can be controlled through exercise and a small dose of Metformin. My doctor whom I fully trust after 20 years has prescribed it as a precaution, to slow down the little insulin resistance I have, but I am sure I am not risking impending death any time soon (even though, I admit, ..sooner than many younger people..).
But I am 76 after all and I don’t see many people of my age in the gym or running up the Mount-Royal Park staircase or windsurfing. CHO’s cannot be but welcome and perhaps necessary in my case..

As to Metformin , it seems to have kicked in sooner than I expected because after only one week , my B.S, has gone below 7.

In addition, for some reasons, my blood pressure is down by 15 points: usually with Avalide it stays around 125/80. Now, after starting Metformin it has gone down to 115/65 avg over five days. It may be because of the interaction with Avalide. I’ll ask my doctor if I should perhaps decrease the dose.

The only thing which caught me off-guard and worried me , is that my blood pressure , for the 1st time EVER , has even gone down to 90/58 a few times during the flue, since I started Metformin.

I called the clinic . The nurse reassured me that this drop is very common with the flu..I have full confidence in her.

In fact, now my blood pressure is back to 115/65.

I’ll mention the low CHO’s proposition to my doctor and keep the Forum posted about her opinion.

As a final note, it is perhaps to be expected that there be no consensus on some medical issues: science provides the general guideline based on scientific research and empirical data , but in the end no two individuals are exactly the same and they may respond differently to the same challenges. Somebody said that in the end there are no diseases but only sick people, each one with his/her own at times different responses..

Ittiandro

 

[Guzzler]

If you question my understanding of the metabolic processes regarding fat metabolism, then you must question in the first place the clinical studies conducted by reputed Universities on this issue, such as the Australian one I mentioned.. : you should explain why it is not true that fat absorption significantly increases postprandial sugar levels. I'd bow to your opinion if , instead of being perhaps a self-taught diabetic and, most likely, an educated person, you were ABOVE ALL( and more importantly) a medical doctor or a professional scientific researcher.
People around seems to give more credence to self-styled nurses or perhaps unqualified health gurus than to medical doctors, professional clinical studies and the scientific establishment...There is a lot of hearsay going around. Mine is perhaps hearsay, too, but at least it comes from qualified medical sources, which only trained medical professionals are qualified to challenge .

Ittiandro

It is in my interest to understand the conditions that I have. I am not a doctor, I am a person with Type 2 Diabetes and I live with it every single day. I live with the knowledge of the complications I may encounter unless I continue to manage my blood glucose levels well.

We have been given dietary advice from health organisations for at least forty years, let me ask how that has gone? Never mind, I know that the rates of Type 2 Diabetes have soared, obesity levels have soared, death from cardiac events have risen. Please do not now come back with patient blaming.

Have you heard of the wisdom of crowds? Have you read of doctors and other health care professionals including professors who are now advocating a lifestyle that actually works to make Type2 Diabetes a manageable condition rather than the progressive disease that most HCPs think of it?

Hubris is a poweful gag.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

Getting hot!

NoCrbs4Me, I am surprised that your nurse should challenge the Canada Food Guide and Diabetes Canada recommendations and go as far as warning that you’d die if you followed them…

Usually professional nurses have adequate medical knowledge and are too tuned in with the medical establishment and the scientific knowledge behind it to openly challenge in such a way some of the more basic medical recommendations regarding health and diet.

Be it as it may, a nurse doesn’t have by definition the same training of a medical doctor and I would not take her advice without seeing a doctor first.

If you saw one, I’m sure he or she would open discredit your nurse’s opinion as well as discourage any self-diagnosis or, worse, any dietary changes without consulting a doctor.

I don’t deny that some doctors may not be fully competent or they may be on the…payroll of pharmaceutical companies or other commercial entities, but as a general rule, doctors don’t engage in foul play and are more competent than nurses to diagnose health conditions and make dietary recommendations, even though they may be fully competent AS NURSES.

I also think that between a nurse , however specialized in diabetes she may be, and clinical studies such as the one I mentioned earlier, recommending an adequate amount of CHO’s and warning against the dangers of excess fats, one should heed the advice of professional doctors… Why you seem to follow a different path, it escapes me.

By the way you mention clinical studies supporting the low CHO’s diet. If you have read some, I’d appreciate you letting me know..

Incidentally, the 130 g/day of CHO’s recommended by the medical establishment, are just a minimum and by no stretch of the imagination can such a minimum be considered as a dangerously HIGH.. Just think: roughly, 130 g/day of CHO’s correspond to a bowl of oatmeal and a few slices of bread, hardly an excessive quantity..

I must confess, though, that I perhaps go over this minimum, as I tend to indulge in bread and I do eat boiled rice more often than not, as my wife is Vietnamese and rice is the main staple for oriental people .

I should add that my safety valve is that I also exercise a lot : when I come back from the gym, after 45 minutes of treadmill 3 times a week , or after jogging in the summer on the magnificent Mount-Royal Park in the heart of Montreal, my b.s. is down to 6.3! And it is certainly not high at 7.5-8 2hrs after a meal.

Sometimes, rarely, it spikes to 11 or so after a meal or at wake-up,( probably due to the dawn-effect) but it promptly goes down during the day.. I keep track of all my self-test results with the meter: my b.s. is the same as one year ago, in spite of my CHO’s intake.

My doctor knows this very well. Actually I have been seeing her at least 3 times a year for the last 20 years .

The glucose self-tests as well as frequent blood tests at the lab and a few glucose tolerance tests at the hospital have not revealed anything more serious than a borderline hyperglycemia, which can be controlled through exercise and a small dose of Metformin, which she prescribed as a precaution, to slow down the little insulin resistance I have, even though I am borderline and I won’t probably die of diabetes anytime soon ( even though..sooner than many younger people..). But I am 76 after all and I don’t see many people of my age in the gym or running up the Mount-Royal Park staircase or windsurfing. CHO’s cannot be but welcome and perhaps necessary in my case..

As to Metformin , it seems to have kicked in sooner than I expected because after only one week , my B.S, has gone below 7.

In addition, for some reasons, my blood pressure is down by 15 points: usually with Avalide it stays around 125/80. Now, after starting Metformin it has gone down to 115/65 avg over five days. It may be because of the interaction with Avalide. I’ll ask my doctor if I should perhaps decrease the dose.

The only thing which caught me off-guard and worried me , is that my blood pressure , for the 1st time EVER , has even gone down to 90/58 a few times during the flue, since I started Metformin.

I called the clinic . The nurse reassured me that this drop is very common with the flu..I have full confidence in her.

In fact, now my blood pressure is back to 115/65.

I’ll mention the low CHO’s proposition to my doctor and keep the Forum posted about her opinion.

As a final note, it is perhaps to be expected that there be no consensus on some medical issues: science provides the general guideline based scientific research and experience, but in the end no two individuals are exactly the same and they may respond differently to the same challenges. Somebody said that in the end there are no diseases but only sick people, each one with his/her own at times different responses..

Ittiandro

The nurse didn't challenge the standard Diabetes Canada advice - that's what she was telling me to follow. They have no other advice. The reality is that this advice does not work. It would be nice to talk to a general practitioner doctor about type 2 diabetes, but they just don't have the time or training to deal with type 2 diabetes - hence, my doctor had me see a nurse specializing in diabetes care whom my doctor assured me was very competent. Eventually, I did get to see a doctor specializing in diabetes care, although it took many months for the referral to get scheduled. By then my blood glucose levels were normal. The doctor looked at my blood test results and said that I had fixed myself. I told him what my diet was (no sugar, no rice, no potatoes, no wheat, lots of meat). He said that was an excellent diet and that's how I had reversed my type 2 diabetes.

I think you need to have another meeting with your doctor and ask why he has failed to diagnose you with type 2 diabetes. Your blood glucose levels are clearly in the diabetic range.

Also, ask your doctor how many of his type 2 diabetic patients following his advice have managed to achieve normal blood glucose levels and get off all diabetes meds.

As requested:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pdi.1835/abstract
http://annals.org/aim/article-abstr...etite-blood-glucose-levels-insulin-resistance
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/53/9/2375.short
https://nutritionandmetabolism.biom.../1743-7075-5-36?wptouch_preview_theme=enabled
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/371804?redirect=true
https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-2-34
https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-2-16
https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-3-22
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2013116
https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-5-14
http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article/S0899-9007(12)00073-1/abstract
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0884533611405791
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0091027
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/internalmedicine/53/1/53_53.0861/_article/-char/ja/

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

There is a free low carb course on this website

Apparently it's no no longer free.

 

[Guzzler]

As to a comment made earlier about the brain and its need for glucose it would be an idea to look up gluconeogenesis. This is just an FYI and not directed at a particular member.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

well, it was minimalist, anyway, so we could give newbie the advice, send people to Dietdoctor

Yes, the Diet Doctor is awesome. I bought his book and it was very useful.

 

[bulkbiker]

you should explain why it is not true that fat absorption significantly increases postprandial sugar levels. I'd bow to your opinion if , instead of being perhaps a self-taught diabetic and, most likely, an educated person, you were ABOVE ALL( and more importantly) a medical doctor or a professional scientific researcher.

I was going to give you a list of eminent doctors and scientists who would say that you have a flawed understanding of how fat is metabolised. But then decided that you probably have made up your mind already so won't waste my time.

 

[ittiandro]

It is in my interest to understand the conditions that I have. I am not a doctor, I am a person with Type 2 Diabetes and I live with it every single day. I live with the knowledge of the complications I may encounter unless I continue to manage my blood glucose levels well.

We have been given dietary advice from health organisations for at least forty years, let me ask how that has gone? Never mind, I know that the rates of Type 2 Diabetes have soared, obesity levels have soared, death from cardiac events have risen. Please do not now come back with patient blaming.

Have you heard of the wisdom of crowds? Have you read of doctors and other health care professionals including professors who are now advocating a lifestyle that actually works to make Type2 Diabetes a manageable condition rather than the progressive disease that most HCPs think of it?

Hubris is a poweful gag.

Yes I have heard of the wisdom of the crowds ( we call it " vox populi" in Latin). While it can be insightful and even helpful on most non-medical issues, it may be unwarranted or even dangerous to indiscriminately rely on it. And, yes, I am aware of health care professionals open to change and advocating lifestyle making Type 2 diabetes manageable. It is a question of seeing if low carbs diets or any of the popular fad diets are among the lifestyle changes a doctor would recommend.
Finally, regarding Hubris, I know what it is : in its original meaning in GreekTragedy it is the arrogance of man playing God or ignoring his precepts..But I am at a loss to understand what you mean in this context...If anything, I would think that hubris is precisely what is at issue here: substituting one's own judgment or the " wisdom of the crowds" for medical advice or refusing to change one's mind set in the face of evidence ..

Ittiandro

 

[bulkbiker]

substituting one's own judgment or the " wisdom of the crowds" for medical advice or refusing to change one's mind set in the face of evidence ..

But.. which medical advice do you wish to follow?
You get the Gregers and the Barnards with the Whole Food Plant Based way of eating
You get your average GP probably trained 20- 30 years ago who hasn't kept up with current science
You have the Fungs and the Unwins who advocate Low Carb and report real success with their patients in the real world
You even get the Prof Taylors with their ultra low calories.

There are no proper RCT's to show who is correct because locking people up for years to trial various dietary and pharmaceutical therapies is unethical.

Who do you want to believe?

I go with the people who have Type 2 and control it with diet because it is their lives they are saving, their feet and eyes.
Give me the wisdom of people with real experience over some guy with letters after his name any day.

 

[PenguinMum]

The human race have been surviving and improving ailments and diseases since time began based on the knowledge of people around them and never having access to doctors or scientists or trials.

 

[ittiandro]

So you don't have diabetes, but you do test your blood and take Metformin. You don't want to adopt a LCHF approach, but you will come to a forum that openly promotes such a thing to try to debunk us. You do want an evidence-based discussion, but you won't accept anyone's research except your own. You imply we're somehow all looking to vindicate our own pre-conceptions while determinedly defending your own. You will quote a dietary body's guidance as "pure science" while cheerfully ignoring who funded, interpreted and then publicised said science.

This is the point where I wish you the very best of luck and bow out of the conversation. May your path, whichever you choose, bring you health and happiness.

Sock x

Before bowing out of the Forum, which is what I had already decided, anyway, let me say the following:
1. I am borderline, perhaps pre-diabetic and the decision to go on Metformin has been taken by my doctor as a precaution to attenuate an initial insulin-resistance. So, I don't see the" but" in your initial statement. It is a viable and consistent choice.
2. A Forum should be open to dissenting voices, too, especially when, contrary to what you say, I have brought in clinical studies and not the mere " voice of the crowds" to argue against LCHF. Without dissenting voices, a Forum would be a sterile gathering of self-righteous believers patting each other's shoulders for believing in a higher, common truth, much like a religious congregation.
3. The evidence- based discussion I advocate is not my own preconceived idea, but it is based on the clinical studies I mentioned. Clinical studies, and not the ( often) wishful thinking of people saying' It works for me, so it must be true.." is the only evidence " admissible in court" as they say in legal language.
I was also open to see clinical studies supporting the LCHF and I asked if somebody could refer me to one of them. So far no response..
4. It is true that clinical studies warning against LCHF maybe sometimes promoted and funded by people or organisations having a vested interest in discrediting LCHF ( the " Commercial" lobby), but you shouldn't draw the conclusion that they are all unreliable or rigged , unless you have a proof . Such dogged generalizations turn our quest for knowledge and the chances of a constructive exchange of ideas into a sterile witch-hunt.

So, yes, my position is still skeptical about LCHF. I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but the fact that the majority of the " believers" still subscribes to this theory, doesn't make it true..
Finally, there is a difference between arguing and contradicting: I argued in that I provided a clinical study. Not much, possibly some other studies support the LCHF. Until I see them, just to say " we all agree on the LCHF" is a mere contradiction not sufficient to convince me..

Ittiandro

 

[Guzzler]

Yes I have heard of the wisdom of the crowds ( we call it " vox populi" in Latin). While it can be insightful and even helpful on most non-medical issues, it may be unwarranted or even dangerous to indiscriminately rely on it. Andjudgement s, I am aware of health care professionals open to change and advocating lifestyle making Type 2 diabetes manageable. It is a question of seeing if low carbs diets or any of the popular fad diets are among the lifestyle changes a doctor would recommend.
Finally, regarding Hubris, I know what it is : in its original meaning in GreekTragedy it is the arrogance of man playing God or ignoring his precepts..But I am at a loss to understand what you mean in this context...If anything, I would think that hubris is precisely what is at issue here: substituting one's own judgment or the " wisdom of the crowds" for medical advice or refusing to change one's mind set in the face of evidence ..

Ittiandro

Not at all. I said hubris because of the intractable nature of some, especially those in the science of medicine, who fear for their reputations and who rather toe the line than lose face. To assume that because one is not medically trained that one is incapable of making sound judgement about one's own health smacks of blind faith and naivety. I will repeat what I said earlier, health organisations have been 'guiding' us for decades and yet we find ourselves in the midst of a T2 epidemic. The wisdom of crowds is showing thousands of people, including HCPs, that there is a different path and that it does work.
You may like to read up on a delightful doctor who, having been shown the methodology, tried low carbing with his patients after seeing the success of a patient - a single patient. He now advocates the lifestyle and lectures other doctors on the benefits and the methodology. His name is David Unwin. There are many others.

 

[britishpub]

He won’t