How Long We Can Control BG With Low Carb Diet?

kokhongw · Feb 9, 2018

VioletViolet said:
Oh there's nothing rational in my fears. I suspect it simply doesn't give me the emotional buzz high carb does.

Sugar rush is not unlike other forms of intoxication. There is little doubt that it is addictive...just look at how kids respond to donuts and sweets. And it is cumulative too. We need larger and larger dose as we move on...diminishing returns. That's how most of us gets here.

Going carbs lite, sugar free helps to reset many things, especially our taste buds. Food that taste bland...actually becomes flavorful. Amazing what a little salt and pepper can do...it is like rediscovering how food actually taste all over again...

And when we reach ketosis...it is a state of zen. Ommmm.....

CL_in_NZ · Feb 9, 2018

VioletViolet said:
I am still scared of low carb, like it's dangerous long term. This is not based on ANYTHING rational. Just a creeping sense "what if the experts are wrong?" like they were about low fat. Just shows how insidious the low fat propaganda is I guess!

I understand where you are coming from. I always thought fat was bad carbs were good. Have I ever done a 180 over the last year! I am now a firm LCHF believer. 6 months ago the GP was planning on putting me on a statin, metformin, and BP meds. I have absolutely no need for any of that now per my GP as my markers now range from normal to excellent and I am stopping a BP med I have taken for years as my BP is on the low side.

Carbs may be fine for some people but not me!

VioletViolet · Feb 10, 2018

And when we reach ketosis...it is a state of zen. Ommmm..... ;)[/QUOTE said:
Haha - that's done it, you've sold me

Biggles2 · Feb 10, 2018

VioletViolet said:
I am still scared of low carb, like it's dangerous long term.

According to Dr. Richard Bernstein, who has had diabetes for 72 years, and who is a strong proponent of the low carb approach, it is the high carbohydrate diet that is the big experiment:

“My dietary recommendations boil down to what our ancestors ate. The American Diabetes Association repeatedly says that while low-carbohydrate diets may work, it’s an experiment and we haven’t enough years of trial of these diets to see if they do any harm. But the ADA diet is an experiment. It was never based on any history. In fact, it is the cause of the epidemic of obesity and diabetes.”

https://www.diabetesdaily.com/interview-dr-bernstein-on-low-carb-diets-treatments-politics-7790/

caroline_92 · Feb 10, 2018

Coming up for 7 years low carb & T2 remission for me. And I have no intention of ever changing back to a 'normal' diet as I have no intention of seeing my diabetes progress.
My mother had a major heart attack in her 50s as a result of un-diagnosed diabetes and that isn't going to happen to me!

jcbman · Feb 10, 2018

I've been in the thirties for the last 5 years out of the seven since I was diagnosed.
If things do change, I figure I can get another decade or so out of switching to low carbing before I even see any rise in blood sugar, I could well be in my 80's by then.

VioletViolet · Feb 10, 2018

Biggles2 said:
According to Dr. Richard Bernstein, who has had diabetes for 72 years, and who is a strong proponent of the low carb approach, it is the high carbohydrate diet that is the big experiment:

“My dietary recommendations boil down to what our ancestors ate. The American Diabetes Association repeatedly says that while low-carbohydrate diets may work, it’s an experiment and we haven’t enough years of trial of these diets to see if they do any harm. But the ADA diet is an experiment. It was never based on any history. In fact, it is the cause of the epidemic of obesity and diabetes.”

https://www.diabetesdaily.com/interview-dr-bernstein-on-low-carb-diets-treatments-politics-7790/

Thanks for the link

kokhongw · Feb 10, 2018

This rather recent update by Dr Eric Westman gives a really good overview...shared some great results from his patients, some were on hundreds of units of insulin for years...enjoy.

Mbaker · Feb 10, 2018

CL_in_NZ said:
I understand where you are coming from. I always thought fat was bad carbs were good. Have I ever done a 180 over the last year! I am now a firm LCHF believer. 6 months ago the GP was planning on putting me on a statin, metformin, and BP meds. I have absolutely no need for any of that now per my GP as my markers now range from normal to excellent and I am stopping a BP med I have taken for years as my BP is on the low side.

Carbs may be fine for some people but not me!

About 30% of the populations based on the amount of obese and overweight numbers; and then in my opinion a lifetime of carbs and sugar puts that 30% in the late onset risks of Type 2, simply due to age / wear and tear (that's if the other carbs / sugar product issues don't get them).

lucylocket61 · Feb 10, 2018

when beta cells die, do they just cease, not regenerate or grow new ones? if so, then t2 is, indeed progressive and cant be reversed, as reversal back to 100% functioning beta cells is impossible. and the beta cells will continue to die, as a result of ageing, if nothing else, so we will all end up on insulin eventually, if we live long enough.

Alison Campbell · Feb 11, 2018

lucylocket61 said:
when beta cells die, do they just cease, not regenerate or grow new ones? if so, then t2 is, indeed progressive and cant be reversed, as reversal back to 100% functioning beta cells is impossible. and the beta cells will continue to die, as a result of ageing, if nothing else, so we will all end up on insulin eventually, if we live long enough.

Wow I'm more optimistic and I think the newcastle diet feels the same way with the protocol of working with people diagnosed less than 6 years.

There is a difference between beta cell dysfunction and death but I need the science to be simpler for me to understand it more.

lucylocket61 · Feb 11, 2018

Alison Campbell said:
There is a difference between beta cell dysfunction and death but I need the science to be simpler for me to understand it more.

Me too. I hope I have misunderstood about beta cells.

kokhongw · Feb 11, 2018

Alison Campbell said:
There is a difference between beta cell dysfunction and death but I need the science to be simpler for me to understand it more.

Dr Defronzo's paper discussed how they arrived at the 80% dysfunction and 50% beta cells death (volume)

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/58/4/773

Figure 3 depicts the insulin secretion/insulin resistance index (ΔI/ΔG ÷ IR) in NGT, IGT, and type 2 diabetic subjects as a function of the 2-h plasma glucose concentration during the OGTT. If a 2-h plasma glucose <140 mg/dl is considered to represent “normal” glucose tolerance, subjects in the upper tertile (2-h PG = 120–139 mg/dl) have lost two-thirds of their β-cell function (see arrow in Fig. 3). Most disturbingly, subjects in the upper tertile of IGT (2-h PG = 180–199 mg/dl) have lost 80–85% of their β-cell function (see second arrow in Fig. 3). Although not commented upon, similar conclusions can be reached from data in previous publications (2,3,7,15). The therapeutic implications of these findings are readily evident. By the time that the diagnosis of diabetes is made, the patient has lost over 80% of his/her β-cell function, and it is essential that the physician intervene aggressively with therapies known to correct known pathophysiological disturbances in β-cell function.

Even more ominous are the observations of Butler et al. (47). In a postmortem analysis, these investigators quantitated relative β-cell volume and related it to the fasting plasma glucose concentration. s.As individuals progressed from NGT to impaired fasting glucose (IFG), there was a 50% decline in β-cell volume, suggesting a significant loss of β-cell mass long before the onset of type 2 diabete With the progression to overt diabetes, there was a further and significant loss of β-cell volume. Although β-cell volume should not be viewed to be synonymous with β-cell mass, these results suggest that significant loss of β-cell mass occurs long before the onset of type 2 diabetes, according to current diagnostic criteria (46).

In summary, our findings (40–42) demonstrate that, at the stage of IGT, individuals have lost over 80% of their β-cell function, while the results of Butler et al. (47) suggest that subjects with “pre-diabetes” have lost approximately half of their β-cell volume.

Alison Campbell · Feb 11, 2018

What I do know is prediabetes up to 50% beta cell dysfuntion and type 2 up to 80%. As well as producing less insulin, the insulin is lower quality and ineffective needing more to do the same job.

When I tried to delve further into the research my brain exploded and I'm not brave enough to go back to it yet.

lucylocket61 · Feb 11, 2018

kokhongw said:
Dr Defronzo's paper discussed how they arrived at the 80% dysfunction and 50% beta cells death (volume)

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/58/4/773

my problem is that i am not clever enough to understand what that all says and means.

kokhongw · Feb 11, 2018

lucylocket61 said:
my problem is that i am not clever enough to understand what that all says and means.

My layman understanding is that the various studies have confirmed that there is 2 types of loss.
1. Is that beta cells actually dies. And that is measured in terms of the mass/volume. It is significantly reduced in those who are pre-diabetic and diabetic.

2. The loss of effectiveness of the insulin produced due to growing insulin resistance. So with the surviving half of the beta cells, it may only have the effectiveness of 20%.

We can restore some of the effectiveness by improving insulin resistance, eg grow new muscles that are more efficient in glucose uptake etc.

But I am not so sure that we can regrow the loss beta cells volume/mass to the original volume...beta cells seems to be a slow growing/replication type of cells. Dr Valter Longo's FMD studies did show that mice could regrow beta cells to produce normal levels of insulin after several cycles. So that could be a possibility yet to be verified/replicated in human clinical studies.

Type 2 beta cells death or loss in functionality is largely due to the vicious cycle of glucose toxicity and insulin resistance. If we break that cycle and are able to maintain near normal glucose/insulin levels, burn off sufficient fats around the pancreas/liver, we have a much better chance of restoring full insulin response as per Dr Roy Taylor's (600-800 cals) VLCD studies that restores 1st phase insulin response.

Still from Dr Roy Taylor's studies, and from Virta Health's published results, only about 50% will reach remission status (though their definition of remission may be slightly different). Have to figure out why it doesn't work for the 50%...

but it is clear to me that T2D need not be progressive, low carbs, very low calories, fasting etc that lowers insulin needs is the direction to go...

Speedbird · Feb 11, 2018

lucylocket61 said:
when beta cells die, do they just cease, not regenerate or grow new ones? if so, then t2 is, indeed progressive and cant be reversed, as reversal back to 100% functioning beta cells is impossible. and the beta cells will continue to die, as a result of ageing, if nothing else, so we will all end up on insulin eventually, if we live long enough.

I’m not sure about the whole process either.
But what I do know is that my mother had type2 from her mid 60s. Her medication was just half a gliclazide tablet every morning. She ate a Mediterranean diet and included everything. Lived to 87 when finally her kidneys stopped working. In her last few years though she was addicted to anything sweet. By 83/4 she developed dementia. X

gusbudone · Feb 11, 2018

caroline_92 said:
Coming up for 7 years low carb & T2 remission for me. And I have no intention of ever changing back to a 'normal' diet as I have no intention of seeing my diabetes progress.
My mother had a major heart attack in her 50s as a result of un-diagnosed diabetes and that isn't going to happen to me!

wow, you are amazing, just low carb diet or with special exercise caroline? i think you can control bg without meds forever

gusbudone · Feb 11, 2018

I once discussed with @kokhongw about stem cells. In my country is currently being developed research on stem cells for diabetes. There are 6 best educational hospitals in my country that have tested patients. Stem cell injection from the spinal cord proved to regenerate the beta cell almost 100% after 3 treatments. So according to the study, beta cels can regenerate but very slowly so it should be assisted with stem cell injection from the outside. But this therapy is very expensive

gusbudone · Feb 11, 2018

Speedbird said:
I’m not sure about the whole process either.
But what I do know is that my mother had type2 from her mid 60s. Her medication was just half a gliclazide tablet every morning. She ate a Mediterranean diet and included everything. Lived to 87 when finally her kidneys stopped working. In her last few years though she was addicted to anything sweet. By 83/4 she developed dementia. X

Your mother becomes proof if diet is very influential for diabetics

How Long We Can Control BG With Low Carb Diet?

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