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I don't get it..

Sid Bonkers said:
I always read your posts with interest pianoman and you often make a lot of sense but when I keep reading references to various blogs and other dubious sources you can make it all seem so obvious that the best way to control diabetes is via alow carb high fat diet but for balance I feel it is worth stating very clearly that 1000's of diabetics myself included control their diabetes extremely well using other methods which dont need to be proved to be safe.
I'm all for an healthy and reasonable discussion of the pros and cons of any method. I don't see where I am telling anyone what to think other than by presenting the evidence that I have found and allowing others to make up their own minds -- isn't that what you are also doing? Where do you see me using "dubious sources"? The latest "blog" I have linked is from an MD. I am glad you think that there are other methods which do not need to be proven as safe... clearly I disagree. As I see it this whole area of discussion is controversial with highly educated and professional MDs holding a variety of convictions... there is not a clear consensus. I try to promote my approach without knocking any others. I am convinced the evidence speaks for itself.

Sid Bonkers said:
Interesting that you mention cancers being fuelled by increased glucose uptake, have you read this study which it states that cancers can also feed off ketones!! Perhaps a ketogenic diet is not as safe as some low carbers would have us believe after all?

You can read the paper here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 7_3506.pdf
I did not "mention it" I offered a link to a presentation by an MD and specialist in Cancer. I'll let him speak for himself. Did you watch the presentation? Thank you for your link I will read it with an open-mind.
 
Wow! well I tried reading the link Sid but I am not a professional scientist and I'll admit my hat is off to you if that is the kind of thing you read... perhaps you can correct any misunderstandings for me?

As best I can figure it out:
The researchers focussed on a specific type of ketone body called 3-hydroxy-butyrate and also L-lactate (not a ketone body) which they describe as "end-products of aerobic glycolysis" in a process they term “the Reverse Warburg effect.”

Unless I am mistaken "aerobic glycolysis" is also known as "oxidisation of glucose" or "burning glucose for energy"?

In this study they attempt to "directly evaluate whether the end-products of aerobic glycolysis (3-hydroxy-butyrate and L-lactate) can stimulate tumor growth and metastasis".

To test their hypothesis they "...chose MDA-MB-231 human breast cancer cells, which show a marker profile most consistent with triple negative and basal-like breast cancers. MDA-MB-231 cells were grown in athymic nude mice as solid tumors via flank injections, or were induced to undergo lung metastasis via tail vein injections. Then, we systemically administered 3-hydroxy-butyrate or L-lactate via intra-peritoneal (i.p.) injections. Our results clearly show that 3-hydroxy-butyrate or L-lactate “fuel” tumor growth and metastasis, without a measurable increase in tumor angiogenesis [growth of new blood vessels]. Thus, our results provide metabolic/functional evidence to directly support the “reverse Warburg effect.”"

In the discussion they note "More specifically, we show that 3-hydroxy-butyrate is sufficient to promote a 2.5-fold increase in tumor volume, without any significant increase in angiogenesis. Although L-lactate did not increase tumor growth, it had a significant effect on lung colonization/metastasis, resulting in a 10-fold increase in the formation of metastatic tumor foci. Our results are consistent with the idea that human breast cancer cells can reutilize the energy-rich end-products of glycolysis for oxidative mitochondrial metabolism."

The conclusion seems to suggest a change to medical intervention within the hospital setting "we discuss the possibility that it may be unwise to use lactate-containing i.v. solutions (such as lactated Ringer’s or Hartmann’s solution) in cancer patients, given the dramatic metastasis-promoting properties of L-lactate." But I'm not clear that they draw any conclusions as to dietary interventions one way or the other?

To my layman's reading this suggests that: these end-products of burning glucose for energy are to be avoided as they increase tumour growth... and especially they should not be given intravenously.

Also of interest to me -- in light of the repeated inferences that ketones are inefficient -- was this statement "Ketones are a 'super-fuel' for mitochondria ['cellular power plants'], producing more energy than lactate and simultaneously decreasing oxygen consumption."
 
Sid Bonkers said:
Perhaps a ketogenic diet is not as safe...after all?

You are perfectly right to question this and every other hypothesis which is put forward... that is how science progresses: by testing theories to see if they stand up to scrutiny. By the same token I am right to question the safety of the "default diet". As Dr Eenfeldt discusses in the AHS presentation I linked above, perhaps we should consider the low-fat diet as the "fad" because it has only been around for 30 years and as a mass experiment it does not seem to have been an overwhelming success... quite the opposite in fact.
 
Can anyone provide links to the original diets of a) Eskimos and b) the Maasai? (are you still out there, Dr Jay?)

I'd be interested in reading some good info on the diets of these indigenous peoples before the "western" diet got to them via missionaries and settlers.

Also the native peoples of the North American plains; and the Sami (Sammi?) of the Finland region too.

It seems to me that high-latitude populations would have had very little carbohydrate in their diets, except for what they could find in the short summer months. I don't know how much the Maasai and the Plains Indians supplemented their diets by foraging. All these groups seem to have done very nicely until they adopted a 20th-century western diet.

Viv 8)
 
viviennem said:
Can anyone provide links to the original diets of a) Eskimos...

Viv, have you seen this by Weston A. Price MS., D.D.S., F.A.G.D. Nutrition and Physical Degeneration - A Comparison of Primitive and Modern Diets and Their Effects http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/pricetoc.html

or this by Vilhjalmur Stefansson Adventures in Diet
http://www.biblelife.org/stefansson1.htm

They are both accounts from respected professionals of their time, with actual experience about that which they write. Neither source is going to meet the exacting standards of someone looking for a Gold-standard, double-blinded, Randomised Controlled Trial but I doubt we'll ever see those as by definition the pre-contact diet of a traditional people precludes contact by "Westerners".

A note of caution that Weston A. Price's writing borders on racist by today's standards but I think it was normal for his time and I doubt any sincere ill-intent by the author.
 
Thanks, Pianoman, that's exactly what I was looking for - first-hand accounts.

I know something of Stefansson from Atkins and Mackarness, so it will be good to read his own work.

Viv 8)
 
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