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Individual assessment for diabetic drivers

adrian840

Member
Messages
10
I saw the following article in Commercial Motor magazine & found it very interesting. As a former lorry driver who lost his license & livleyhood when i became insulin dependant I welcome this move, hopefully I might even get my licences back.

Drivers who have been banned from driving lorries because they suffer from diabetes have welcomed a move by the European Commission to start introducing individual assessments.

Here is a link to the full article.
http://www.roadtransport.com/Articles/2 ... ivers.html
 
Having just read Annex III to EU Directive 91/439/CEE it seems nothing will change. The working group has stated that the new "criteria should appear in guidelines rather than in the law". So it seems that legislation will be left to each individual member state. Back to the job centre then !!
 
Wrong, things will HAVE to change within a year of the European Directive - that is, by August 2010. Although member states are permitted to set more stringent standards, they would have to provide hard evidence as to why - which would lay them open to strong challenge. This has already been discussed by the Medical Advisory Panel on Driving and Diabetes.
 
The "hoops" will be about good diabetes control with no severe hypos in previous 12 months, nu unawareness of hypos, report from a diabetes specialist and the like - surely not unreasonable to keep our roads safe?
 
marjomatt said:
The "hoops" will be about good diabetes control with no severe hypos in previous 12 months, nu unawareness of hypos, report from a diabetes specialist and the like - surely not unreasonable to keep our roads safe?
Absolutely right, and no different to the current hoops through which diabetics who wish to drive have to jump (rightly so).

Article said:
Despite there being no conclusive evidence that diabetics pose an increased risk of causing accidents, sufferers who take insulin injections have been prevented from getting behind the wheel of a truck.
Completely disagree with this statement, having been involved in a RTA caused by a hypo (& unawareness), despite rigorous compliance with very sensible DVLA conditions. You don't have to search very far to find similar stories, I was just fortunate that nobody else was involved or worse.
 
How many of you who have voiced an opinion on diabetes and driving are, or were professional drivers? I’m not talking about doing a bit of driving on the side to earn extra cash or the daily commute to work, but driving for a living where your family, mortgage, your whole life depends on it. I listened to people going on about how hard it is to stop a truck and how dangerous they are, usually from people that have driven nothing bigger than a Nissan Micra. The haulage industry is already heavily regulated and rightly so, a few more conditions on a diabetics licence wouldn’t make that much difference. All people are asking for is some support from those who are supposed to understand the condition most. To be diagnosed as type 1 at the age of 41 and then lose your livelihood was a huge shock and loss. If you can’t control your BG then that is your problem, some of us can and should be given the opportunity to pursue our chosen career. If you don’t like it don’t say anything, what chance have any of us got if our fellow diabetics are against us? All I ask is that you think of other people as individuals rather than just ‘diabetics’.
 
I absolutey agree that drivers - whether car, taxi, LGV - should be treated as individuals and assessed accordingly. Unfortunately some drivers on insulin (or tablets that lower blood glucose) do not follow the sensible guidelines about testing before driving - and these are the ones that have accidents and make life more difficult for those of us who DO follow guidelines.... and I believe that if your livlihood depends on driving safely those people will be the "best behaved".

And especially now with medical advances, better education in dose adjustment, better equipment such as insulin pumps and continuous blood glucose monitoring, it is high time that there should be individual assessment. Just sad that it has taken so long (and still up to 10 months to go)
 
by adrian840 on Today, 8:33 pm
If you don’t like it don’t say anything, what chance have any of us got if our fellow diabetics are against us? All I ask is that you think of other people as individuals rather than just ‘diabetics’.

It does not matter if we agree or do disagree with what you are saying, we have every right to say something, just because you don't like it and don't want to treat us as "individuals" should we ask you not to say anything :?:

As a HGV mechanic, I lost my HGV and therefore lost my job. S*it happens, I was not happy about it, but public safety called for me not to drive. At the time I was gutted, but you pick yourself up and move on. I was 25, mortgage, debts the whole nine yards.

Do I think it right for me not to drive a HGV? At 25 I would have said no, but with experience of diabetes over the last 20 years I would have to say Yes.

by marjomatt on 53 minutes ago

and I believe that if your livlihood depends on driving safely those people will be the "best behaved".

If only that were true, I know taxi drivers that drink and drive, HGV drivers who should wear glasses but don't. Delivery drivers who use their mobiles while driving. Their livlihood at risk, better behaved? I think not. :(
 
All those who agree with individual assessment and holding a group 2 licence are wasting your time posting in here. Sadly, you will get limited support from this forum. Most people appear to believe that anybody with diabetes should keep a wide birth between themselves and the road.

Many people in here have little or no experience driving large vehicles, let along doing it FOR A LIVING. Everybody seems to know somebody who has had a 'hypo' at the wheel of a car and susequently had an accident. Hell, I had a bus written off because a chap had a hypo and smacked straight into the side of it. I would never draw on that experience and hold that all insulin users are a danger. It was just one person who had failed to check his blood sugar.

How many people can cite multiple stories of bus/lorry drivers regularly causing deaths in service due to poor insulin control? They're out there in the UK..... hundreds of Type 1s who gained their licence pre-1991 and can thus keep it. If they were that problematic on the roads, don't you think a complete and total ban would be enforced?

Thankyou to all those who recognise we are individuals with diabetes, rather than diabetics. As Adrian posted, there are some of us who are fortunate enough not to suffer with complications and are able, luckily, to maintain good control. There is no reason those people cannot drive large vehicles.
 
Individual assessment obviously makes sense, and it already happens to a very great extent. But to say that there's no evidence of diabetics posing a greater risk as drivers is quite frankly just sticking your head in the sand.

Diabetics taking medication to reduce blood sugar are quite likely to have a hypo at some point in their lives. If this happens while behind the wheel - of whatever vehicle - the consequences can be and often are quite disastrous.

The issue is about managing the risk more effectively, and in a way that is fair to all diabetics, recognises the conscientious ones and also flags those who are not. Unfortunately a percentage of non-compliance is a reality in most situations, this one included.
 
by silvermonkey10 on Today, 8:26 am
there are some of us who are fortunate enough not to suffer with complications and are able, luckily, to maintain good control. There is no reason those people cannot drive large vehicles.

This is quite true, but it takes time and experience to gain good control, I doubt many diabetics type 1 or 2 managed to get good control in the early stages.

Taking this into account, are you saying a person diagnosed with diabetes should be able to carry on driving an HGV ? or should there be a period of time so they can be assessed, if so what period of time would you put on this?

In an ideal world there would be no discrimination of any type, but unfortunatley we do not live in an ideal world, people have to make a risk assessment and based on the figures and information to hand have to protect the public.

Do you not have a smoke alarm in your house because you are careful and "the chances are you will not have a fire" or do you have one because statistically if you do have a fire you may save yourself and family?

If I go partially blind tomorrow, should I still be able to drive an HGV, because its my right to do so.

Not an ideal scenario but you get what I am saying.

Diabetes management tools and knowledge has changed so much over the last twenty years and maybe this now needs to be taken into account in relation to people driving HGVs etc. The information that was to hand when the ban came into force may well be dated and needs a re-assesment. But this needs to be done by people armed with the correct information and facts from health professionals and insurance companys.

by silvermonkey10 on Today, 8:26 am
Many people in here have little or no experience driving large vehicles, let along doing it FOR A LIVING

I have never ridden a uni-cycle but I am still entitled to an opinion on them based on my knowledge of riding a bike. :lol:
 
Silvermonkey.

Did you think that because the majority of us on here are all Diabetics we are all supposed to agree with you and some others who have posted ? Getting upset because we are not going to go down your particular road. We are all individuals with views that often are contradictory. We all make our own minds up about the subject here. You know my views as evidenced elsewhere, I am not about to change them just because you and others in the country feel it is an injustice. It's called Democracy ? Free Speech. You voice your opinion, we voice ours. Nobody has to agree to anything.

If the law get's changed I will obviously have to go along with it. I won't like it, but that's just my opinion.

As for the poster who thinks none of us are/or have ever been Professional drivers. You know nothing of the background of anybody on this forum unless they choose to tell you. I was a Pro' driver of ALL categories of vehicles for many years, I worked for British Road Services, driving everything from small vans to Terex carrying Low-Loaders. Oh, I have driven a Nissan Micra as well. I was paid handsomely too. I can also ride a bike, motorised or otherwise. :D I have also witnessed the carnage on the roads caused by drivers who were doing everything perfectly till something goes wrong and their reactions weren't up to speed. Do you actually know what happens to someone having a Hypoglycaemic or Hyperglycaemic episode. I do.

Fuji/kegstore. Excellent posts.
 
Fuji - I quite agree that there should be a time lapse between diabetes diagnosis and decisions regarding licences. I don't know what kind of time lapse - maybe a year (given the six month honeymoon period), I don't know.

Obviously if you were going blind or had other serious complications then it would not be sensible to retain such a licence. I realise that. Of course you're entitled to your opinion. I just wonder how you'd feel if you'd spent so many years driving a bus, and you enjoyed it, then it was just swiped from you because other people have decided you can no longer do your job safely, without even giving you a chance to deal with diabetes and see how you respond to it. At the same time, your depot has a percentage of insulin users who are allowed to drive buses because they were diagnosed before the law changed.

All I'm saying is quite simply.... insulin users shouldn't be automatically blanket banned from HGVs/LGVs/PCVs. They should be given the chance to demonstrate an excellent control regime, etc, etc. Fortunately I was able to gain this from the start.

When I lost my PCV/HGV licences, I was allowed to retain my 7.5 tonne licence. Many people on this forum might be horrified to learn that I drove a wagon that size last week. Fortunately I managed to arrive at my destination without leaving a trail of death and carnage due to the size of my vehicle and my insulin usage. The journey did consist of the usual idiots who fail to check their mirrors appropriately, fail to signal their intentions, and so on.

Cugila - OK, we both know where we stand on all of this. We agree to disagree...we know that. Yes, I have had experience of both hypo and hyper episodes. Once through severe illness and the other the medical profession induced upon me in order I recognise it. Hypo's (and I'm talking about those with their awareness intact, no experience of hypo unawareness so can't comment) can be countered by testing of blood sugar before and during a road trip. No excuse for hypos at the wheel.

Furthermore, no, I don't expect support from everybody. I was being too hopeful. Its been quite an eye-opener to learn that so many feel we ought to be discrimated against. Its annoying that you don't go all the way and protest against diabetics being within a five mile radius of the road in anything mechanically-propelled or otherwise. Why do people have issues with large vehicles and diabetes? Surely if you want to go down that road you may as well argue we are a danger in any vehicle. Presumably all those who chose the view to ban the marriage of insulin users and heavy goods drivers all rushed to the DVLA to surrender your car/motorbike licences completely when learning you were on hypo-inducing meds???? 'Cos I too Cugila have seen the fatal results of CAR drivers who have failed to respect their diabetes.

I hope the law is changed and I'm positive that it will be. I for one will be straight back behind the wheel of a bus.....complications allowing.
 
Silvermonkey10 stated:
Furthermore, no, I don't expect support from everybody. I was being too hopeful. Its been quite an eye-opener to learn that so many feel we ought to be discrimated against.

You call it discrimination. I call it common sense. I have a firend who's son was diagnosed with Epilepsy at age 24 yrs. He had his licence taken from him 4 years ago. He can't get it back until he has been free from any fits for twelve months. He got to 11 months and 10 days once, then had a fit. He still has no licence. He didn't get uptight about it. He just found something else he could do which doesn't involve driving. He once said, he couldn't live with himself if he had an accident down to his Epilepsy. So his view is he is safer off the road.

Its annoying that you don't go all the way and protest against diabetics being within a five mile radius of the road in anything mechanically-propelled or otherwise.
Very emotive again. Not at all what anybody, least of all me has said ?

Why do people have issues with large vehicles and diabetes?
Well, that's what some of us have been trying to explain to you. But, as you say you don't agree. So you keep coming back with the same things. I know that you find it an emotive subject. So do I. Very. I have dealt with countless accidents involving cars and most times they are usually just damage only or minor injuries. Then there are the more serious and fatal ones, usually involving somebody doing something that they shouldn't have been doing. Speeding, dangerous, careless driving, drunk, drugs, illnesses. They all would have called themselves good, careful drivers but as they say, accidents do happen. Not really, there is usually a cause. Now with a car that isn't so bad. Change the vehicle to a fully laden LGV travelling along a Motorway and when something goes wrong there, what do we see. Multi vehicle pile ups, cars flattened by LGV's unable to stop in time. Cars compressed to a few feet in an instant. So the reason why I don't want an Insulin user behind the wheel of an LGV is prevention. Not to punish anybody, not to take their livelihood away, not to get them depressed. It is PUBLIC SAFETY. Now don't put a spin on my words. Read what I say, not imply something that I have never said. I have investigated these accidents many times. A poor car driver who is hit by an LGV has in those circumstances is running a serious risk of death.

Surely if you want to go down that road you may as well argue we are a danger in any vehicle. Presumably all those who chose the view to ban the marriage of insulin users and heavy goods drivers all rushed to the DVLA to surrender your car/motorbike licences completely when learning you were on hypo-inducing meds????

Yet again, emotive and not what anybody has said. Just what you read into things.

'Cos I too Cugila have seen the fatal results of CAR drivers who have failed to respect their diabetes.
Yes, me too over many years. I have seen things which were so horrific that I wouldn't even begin to try and describe them here. I have had the sad task of telling relatives that their son/daughter won't be coming home again. Couldn't even let them see the body, too horrific. The unfortunate fact you neglected to mention is that most LGV drivers are car drivers too. So if we are looking at poorly controlled car drivers, well, using your logic, it follows that a percentage of them are LGV drivers as well. Do they suddenly stop being poorly controled drivers, no. They just become poorly controlled LGV drivers. With the best will in the world I don't want to see that happen. As I said before, PUBLIC SAFETY is my only concern. When I joined the Police I took an oath to protect life and property. I have never forgotten those words. They stick with me to this day.

I hope the law is changed and I'm positive that it will be. I for one will be straight back behind the wheel of a bus.....complications allowing.

So, you are still a Bus Driver at heart then.......?
 
If I go partially blind tomorrow, should I still be able to drive an HGV, because its my right to do so.

No, not true. As well as there being an Advisory Panel on Driving and Diabetes, there are also Advisory Panels on - Alcohol, Drugs and Substance Misuse; Cardiovascular system; Disorders of the nervous system; Psychiatric disorders; and - ref. your mention of going blind - Visual Disorders.

So diabetes is not the only health condition that the DVLA have to be concerned about, many other people have restrictions on their driving and rightly so.

BUT in my opinion, there are many dangerous drivers out there - including young men of 17+ who want to show off - and I believe everyone should be treated as individuals, after a medical examination by a specialist in the field, and there should not be blanket bans for inslin-treated-people.

And ANYONE who drives without regard to the safety of themselves and others should have the book thrown at them; they are the ones who bring undue restrictions on other safe drivers.
 
silvermonkey10.

I have thought about it, for some reason I don't think you are my type somehow. But thanks anyway.... :D
 
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