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Informed choices - downsides of LCHF?

M

Mileana

Well-Known Member
Messages
553
Location
Denmark
Hi all,

It's me again :lol:

I am a low-carber. Low for me is in the area of 50g/day. I have no intention of changing this, really. Why? Because it works. It allows me to keep a relatively narrow control while losing weight on insulin. That's really enough for me. Apart from that, omiting most starches seems to result in less gastro problems and better absorbtion of vits and mins that I have been deficient in for years. My BP and Cholesterol has not moved up, but rather down a bit. As a result of less circulating Rapid Acting Insulin, I have less hypo's. That's all good.

There is something that bothers me a tiny bit though, and that is that I haven't been able to find the information I need on the side effects of low-carbing.

Let me explain.

When a LCHF diet is used to treat epilepsy (by making use of ketones to buffer the over-excited signals in the brain, made simple), doctors will want to keep a close eye on various aspect of peoples blood tests. This as far as I can tell includes calcium levels because the increased acidity of the blood that comes from ketones causes a slight bone demineralization and can the lead to kidney stones, weak bones etc. Normally if they find this going on, they will add a certain salt to the patients diet to prevent this - if I recall right, a phospherous compound. Likewise there is normally a chance the child (most children on this diet) will need certain vitamins, often Vit Bs to compensate for the lack of them as they often come from grain sources apart from meat. Also, growth hormone will be inhibited in children, often, which may or may not be relevant to adults.

LCHF diets (ketogenic diet) for epilepsy is close to the ones many people on here use and while I have no intention of trying to talk anyone out of low-carbing, nor really want to give up low-carbing myself, I would find it helpful to have the information available to the people making a choice and also I would like to be able to ask my cooperative team to test the relevant aspects myself.

I have also mentioned before that I have a bit of trouble understanding just how my body will react if I suddenly developed say a pneumonia and my blood ketones are already high and my blood sugars would then rise - would that mean as an insulin user, I have less margin in this situation?

Please help me gather this information so I can make choices accordingly and know where to be extra careful. I have no intention of starting a forum war or anything of this nature. Rather, I believe that with all the benefits of low-carbing, there is room to discuss the side effects without undermining the whole idea but rather take measures to minimize these effects if they exist.

Thanks all,

-M
 
Like yourself Mileana I've been trying to find info on the long term safety of Ketogenic (VLC) diets by looking at it from the epilepsy viewpoint where it has been recommended for a number of years. The lead researcher seems to be the Johns Hopkins neurologist Dr. Eric Kossoff. You can find out more and see an interview with him here

http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/...off-treats-epilepsy-with-ketosis-episode-367/

You can get his Ketogenic diet book off Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Ketogenic-Diet-Treatment-Children-Epilepsy/dp/1932603182

He and many others have researched Ketogenic diets diets for years. He did a 2009 study which concluded Ketogenic diets are long term safe although I haven't yet found a free source of the study so can't provide a link I'm afraid.

More recent studies are beginning to conclude Ketogenic diets are effective against a range of neurological disorders including not just epilepsy but Alzheimers, Parkinsons, brain tumours and just plain aging to name a few.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3321471/pdf/fphar-03-00059.pdf
 
Hi Mileana,

I would say that on about 30 grams of carb a day, as I am, I need to take fibre supplements; some people don't, but I really can't get that much fibre in me on that level of carb. Previously, I kind of thought of fibre as another suspicious dietary 'fact' which was just being sold to us, but in reality I have to acknowledge that it helps; I went from having fairly constant upset stomachs to normal by taking Holland & Barratt psyllium supplements in the morning and at night. So, that's one downside; but easily managed.

The other would be that it's not a magic bullet for weight - it makes it much easier to lose weight, but in and of itself you won't turn you into a Hollywood star shape. I think the total calorific intake will still play a part, but as you are no longer hungry all the time it is relatively easy to mix and match what you eat. For instance I never ever snack now; I eat three meals a day and have coffee and water during the day and that's it. Apart from all the booze, of course...

Once I started low-carbing proper I found that my tolerance of carbs has gone down markedly; if I were to eat a sandwich for lunch it would totally throw my blood sugars even when taking what I previously would have thought of as the correct insulin to cover it.

The upsides are well documented. I have been Type 1 for about 33 years; I previously had some concerns about my kidneys; and was being monitored by the Nephrology department at my hospital, now my blood test suggest that I am at 'possible' stage 1 CKD - the mildest form of kidney disease; I'm very pleased with the use of the word 'possible' there too! As far as retinopathy my eyes have some mild historic retinal damage; I was recently told by my eye consultant that I had a 1 in 100 chance of needing laser treatment in the next year if my control stayed the same, and that my eyes looked like I had had diabetes for half the time that I have.

Best

Dillinger
 
Thank you, both.

I will look into the links from you xy, and thanks for the additional information from you Dillinger.

Does anyone of you know about the ketones and suddenly soaring blood sugars with illness? Is it an added risk with the ketones already present, or marginal?

Be back in a while when I have had time to try and look at said links :)

Thanks again.

-M
 
That interview was very informative and also confirmed the things I had already sort of gathered. It seems on a modified atkins, the risk of side effects is lower than on a complete ketogenic diet (read: 95 percent of cals from fat).

I have already made the choice to start up the following supplements along with my ketogenic/modified diet:

Folic acid and Vit B12
Calcium and Vitamin D
Fish Oil
Fibre supplements.

I seem to be doing the right thing and have gathered about the same as the rest of you about where the trouble might arise.

I am trying the diet for better control of my bipolar as well as diabetes and I won't complain about the results so far although for bipolar, the mood stabilising effect is currently not investigated/researched properly.

I'll continue to have my cholesterol, folic acid, vit D, red blood count and bone demineralisation markers checked every 3 months and I am just fortunate that my endo is super-cooperative and helps me check the things that seem relevant.

Then just the ketones and illness question remains.
 
Mileana

I do B12 and Fibre supplements (Benefibre and Psyllium Husks) the combination of those two certainly keeps things moving if you get my drift. I was doing Omega 3 but Borofergie told me it screwed up some balance with Omega 6 so now I just eat real oily fish via cans of sardines. I was doing Vit D but my doc wants to test me for it in a couple of months so I've stopped for a bit so as to get a true reading.

B12 is a bit weird. As far as I know it is difficult to get enough orally as it breaks down quickly in the stomach and is why for example if you are deficient then just eating a high B12 source like steak won't necessarily sort it out. Normally if you are B12 deficient they sort it via injections. The B12 I take is a 1000 ug one from H*lla*d and B*rr*tt as at 40000% RDA the theory is some will get into your system. I'd also recommend Q10 but its expensive unless you order it from the States. I got 600 Q10 caps for the same price as 30 from H*lla*d and B*rr*tt!

Of course you're in Denmark so all of that may be different :lol:
 
xyzzy said:
Mileana

I do B12 and Fibre supplements (Benefibre and Psyllium Husks) the combination of those two certainly keeps things moving if you get my drift. I was doing Omega 3 but Borofergie told me it screwed up some balance with Omega 6 so now I just eat real oily fish via cans of sardines. I was doing Vit D but my doc wants to test me for it in a couple of months so I've stopped for a bit so as to get a true reading.

B12 is a bit weird. As far as I know it is difficult to get enough orally as it breaks down quickly in the stomach and is why for example if you are deficient then just eating a high B12 source like steak won't necessarily sort it out. Normally if you are B12 deficient they sort it via injections. The B12 I take is a 1000 ug one from H*lla*d and B*rr*tt as at 40000% RDA the theory is some will get into your system. I'd also recommend Q10 but its expensive unless you order it from the States. I got 600 Q10 caps for the same price as 30 from H*lla*d and B*rr*tt!

Of course you're in Denmark so all of that may be different :lol:
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I do a Vit B complex with extra B12, I also take a cod liver oil supplement and Vit D. I take calcium along with Magnesium, Vit D3, zinc and supporting nutrients in a single pill called Osteocare. I also take Q10 along with other supplements that I feel benefit me.
I [so far] have not needed extra fiber, but that could change, but so far my ULC diet, and supplements not only control my BG but I am also fitter and healthier than I have been in well over a decade, and I look younger. My skin, hair and nails are so much better than ever before. Something is working well for me. :D
 
I have had Vit D and Vit B12 injections for 2 years, hasn't helped one bit. I've been told to not take B's without folic acid.

I don't know if the 3s screw up the balance with the 6s though - for my purpose I take the 3-6-9 ratio ones to help out my brain find the balance with the bipolar stuff.

It seems without the grain to upset my stomach, the vitamins are slowly starting to go up though. I looked at the fibre I would normally get and decided to add a bit to the small amount of yoghurt I seem to be able to tolerate in the am's.

I ended up concluding my system could make its own q10 - how come you decided to add it, Defren and Xy?

-M
 
Mileana said:
I have also mentioned before that I have a bit of trouble understanding just how my body will react if I suddenly developed say a pneumonia and my blood ketones are already high and my blood sugars would then rise - ...
-M
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About your "already high" ketones: I can pass on something from Volek and Phinney's book -- The level of ketones on low carb diets 60g-20g/day, goes from 0.5 and rarely exceeds 3 mM serum B-OHB . In diabetic ketoacidosis, the levels reach 15-25mM range.
 
Mileana said:
I have had Vit D and Vit B12 injections for 2 years, hasn't helped one bit. I've been told to not take B's without folic acid.

I don't know if the 3s screw up the balance with the 6s though - for my purpose I take the 3-6-9 ratio ones to help out my brain find the balance with the bipolar stuff.

It seems without the grain to upset my stomach, the vitamins are slowly starting to go up though. I looked at the fibre I would normally get and decided to add a bit to the small amount of yoghurt I seem to be able to tolerate in the am's.

I ended up concluding my system could make its own q10 - how come you decided to add it, Defren and Xy?

-M
Click to expand...

I decided to try it and see what if any effects it had on me and my overall health. I only take one capsule a day as the recommended daily dose, and I do feel it is [with the other supplements] making a difference I can feel.

I do appreciate as an ULC there may and I stress "may" be a chance of other problems developing, so as far as I am concerned if I am as fit and healthy as possible, I stand a much better chance of fighting anything off. I don't smoke, and I drink alcohol so rarely it's not worth a mention, although I did try a couple of glasses of gin a day to see what if any effect it had on my BG. It did help, but nowhere near enough to make me want to drink any more than I would usually. I think when you are on a LCHF diet, you become very attuned to your body and it's needs. I know I can feel slight changes I wouldn't have done before. An example, if I have a high protein day, you can bet your boots the next day I will crave cream and butter and good fats, it's almost like a carb craving, but this is just to regulate my body, and now, at long last after 46 years I can finally hear what it's saying. I do put all my good health down to being diagnosed diabetic, then deciding to take the LCHF route, it absolutely works for me, and not just in terms of good BG's.
 
Thank you, that was useful to know, Etty.

Alright, Defren, just wondered - what is it supposed to help for again, I forgot among the other things out there, lol.
 
Hi Mileana

I decided on Q10 after reading it can help compensate against the possible leeching effects of statins. I'm a bit of a schizoid when it comes to statins so on the one hand I'm pretty convinced there is a safe upper limit to cholesterol but on the other I do probably think statins are causing me a few side effects. So to me I see a there is a definite risk of CVD from too high cholesterol which just about outweighs the risks from side effects. Q10 seemed a happy compromise. In reality and as my cholesterol level is normal I have now stopped my statin for the next 2 months as the doc and I have agreed to see what lchf does to me without the statins action. He quite rightly points out that coming off them for that short term isn't likely to be harmful. I will then take a sounding based on my new level.
 
Okay. I have never been suggested taking statins. My cholesterol is 3.9 and eventho my HdL is a bit on the low side, I think I am more likely to improve that with a few dietary adjustments than with meds at this current time.

I will have a ponder about the Q10, though. Need to read a bit more about it first. The possibility of sleeplessness is certainly unwanted, the lowering of blood pressure I think would be undesirable too for me - I'm already around 105/65.

However, the mitochondria effect may be worth it - I will see what I do I think after the next set of blood tests in September so I have an idea what LCHF does before I add another component.

Sometimes, lol, I think all this information in a relatively short period of time is more than my brain can handle. Then somehow I find out it handles it quite fine, lol. Nice to have people like you guys around though to ask - can get quite confused when reading enough material. You can sometimes end up with equally many pro's and con's and 10 times more confused.

Thanks.
 
Another thing to consider to include in lchf is coconut oil, it's good for you and will help to increase the amount of fat which is important to consider when eating lchf.
 
Mileana said:
LCHF diets (ketogenic diet) for epilepsy is close to the ones many people on here use and while I have no intention of trying to talk anyone out of low-carbing, nor really want to give up low-carbing myself, I would find it helpful to have the information available to the people making a choice and also I would like to be able to ask my cooperative team to test the relevant aspects myself.
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I don't think that diets are the same as the ones they (used to promote) for epilepsy, and for which the "problems" of calcium depletion etc occured. These were basically protein and calorie deficient diets of chemicals, and the symtoms noted are all consistent with malnutrition:
For those keeping score, Ross Carbohydrate Free consists of soy protein isolate, high oleic safflower oil, soy oil, and coconut oil, plus vitamins and minerals. Microlipid is a safflower oil emulsion. Ross Polycose is hydrolyzed cornstarch.
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http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/03/ke ... nic-diets/

That in no-way reflects my diet. Which is meat, eggs, berries, vegetables and salad. Safflower oil emulsion sounds like poison to me.

Take vitamins if you want, but they are in no-way necessary for a ketogenic diet. I eat more green vegetables now, than I ever did on a high-carb diet.

The vitamin I take is a D3 supplement - but that's as a consequence of living in England, and has nothing to do with my diet.
 
Absolutely, sorry for not including that (thats what meant by increasing fat amount), include some good butter as well like Kerry gold or other butter from grass feed cows, instead of using spreads with all kinds of stuff in them (just read the label :shock: )
 
borofergie said:
That in no-way reflects my diet. Which is meat, eggs, berries, vegetables and salad. Safflower oil emulsion sounds like poison to me.
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Snap, but as I'm not doing the 30 day Paleo challenge thing add some real butter, cheese and cream to your list. My everyday fall back dietary routine at present is

Breakfast : Full fat Greek yoghurt and some berries.
Lunch : Plate full of salad (Lettuce, celery, cucumber, some radishes or spring onions, maybe a grated carrot). About 100g of grated cheddar and a couple of slices of ham or tin of sardines. Add a decent squirt of full fat salad cream.
Dinner : A load of green veg with butter plus "something" meat, fish etc. Another current favourite is to do chunky chips made from courgettes dipped in parmesan and have them with full fat mayonnaise. For afters the standard is now fruit salad done as a 50% fruits 50% rhubarb mix with sugar free jelly and double cream.

Sunday is bacon & egg day. :D
Saturday night is Indian takeaway day. :D

Like yourself the salad is adding a few more carbs a day than I was on but nothing significant.
 
To increase the amount of fat in you diet more easily try your own version of bulletproof coffee - http://www.bulletproofexec.com/how-to-m ... rning-too/ try mixing good tasting strong coffee with 2tbsp of coconut oil and at least 2 tbsp of unsalted butter 9from grass feed cows) in 2-3 dl of coffee, mix in a blender (if you got a magic bullet use this) and it will look like a fluffy latte.
 
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