1. Get the Diabetes Forum App for your phone - available on iOS and Android.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Guest, we'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the Diabetes Forum Survey 2020 »
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Diabetes Forum should not be used in an emergency and does not replace your healthcare professional relationship. Posts can be seen by the public.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Guest, stay home, stay safe, save the NHS. Stay up to date with information about keeping yourself and people around you safe here and GOV.UK: Coronavirus (COVID-19). Think you have symptoms? NHS 111 service is available here.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Find support, ask questions and share your experiences. Join the community »

Interesting scientific developments in T2 treatment

Discussion in 'Type 2 Diabetes' started by bearMedicine, May 26, 2016.

  1. bearMedicine

    bearMedicine Type 2 · Active Member

    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    43
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,359
    Likes Received:
    1,665
    Trophy Points:
    198
    • Like Like x 3
  3. bearMedicine

    bearMedicine Type 2 · Active Member

    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    43
    It would certainly be interesting to further research it. I had assumed that the responsible metabolic pathway(s) was entirely within the abdominal glands
     
  4. SunnyExpat

    SunnyExpat Prefer not to say · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,230
    Likes Received:
    1,704
    Trophy Points:
    178
    • Useful Useful x 1
  5. 13lizanne

    13lizanne Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    8,254
    Likes Received:
    27,505
    Trophy Points:
    198
    GOody! I can't wait for an injection directly into my brain?
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Funny Funny x 3
  6. bearMedicine

    bearMedicine Type 2 · Active Member

    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    43
    This presumes that we even understand what a "healthy" diet is! Low fat / high carb diets, as highlighted in recent studies and literature (as well as the media), also seem to lead to heart disease and obesity whereas high fat does not necessarily? So who to believe?
     
  7. SunnyExpat

    SunnyExpat Prefer not to say · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,230
    Likes Received:
    1,704
    Trophy Points:
    178
    I'll believe what actually happened in the FGF1 studies, rather than arguing about the labels.
    (I don't think anyone has mentioned heart disease or obesity, so that's not relevant to your original post)
     
  8. bearMedicine

    bearMedicine Type 2 · Active Member

    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I only mentioned them because the abstract that you referred to did:
    "The new study suggests that in mice, as in people, genetic susceptibility to type 2 diabetes and other metabolic problems may only become apparent when on an unhealthy diet, particularly one that leads to obesity."

    My point is that we still don't really understand what kind of diet leads to obesity and general ill health, as described in the abstract with respect to mice. The abstract also speaks of changing the mice to a "healthy" diet i.e. one which is lower in fat. This presumes that a low-fat diet is healthy, which is in dispute. It's not about labels for me either, but the study you referenced decided to use them.
     
  9. SunnyExpat

    SunnyExpat Prefer not to say · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,230
    Likes Received:
    1,704
    Trophy Points:
    178
    The mice got fat, to me, that qualifies as an unhealthy diet. You may not like the idea a high fat diet made them fat in the study, and a healthy diet you don't like being labeled healthy made then thin again, but that's another argument.
    I would suggest the study was looking at FGF1, and you're getting a bit too hung up on the merits, or lack of, of high fat diets. No point in arguing with the facts.

    (For what it's worth, fat makes me fat as well, I don't eat a great amount of it, and I consider my diet healthy.)
     
  10. Myangelsmom

    Myangelsmom · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    116
    Trophy Points:
    53
    @SunnyExpat - it states a high fat diet, but makes no mention of carbs. It would be interesting to know what the macros were that they were feeding the groups, not just ONE macro. That is unhelpful.
     
  11. SunnyExpat

    SunnyExpat Prefer not to say · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,230
    Likes Received:
    1,704
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Would you think it would effect the FGF1 response?
     
  12. ranaway

    ranaway Type 2 · Newbie

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    If the suggestion is that the brain may be responsible for some T2 then does this suggest stress as a precursor? I developed T2 at a highly stressful point in my life 2 years or so ago and have continued with significant stress since. With no familial background or predisposition and no obvious weight or health issues plus a background of heavy sport indulgence and decent diet, it has been a total surprise. A chronic back condition requiring 12 years of oxycontin use raises suspicions. Stress clearly affects cortisol and this affects glucose/insulin so has the brain compensated in sone form mistakenly and until stress can be diminished it could be a catch 22!??
     
  13. Myangelsmom

    Myangelsmom · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    116
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Not sure, but it seems that if one was going to say high fat causes t2 because the mice ate high fat and they got fat and developed t2... One would have to indicate fairly what the rest of the macros were. A standard american diet leading to obecity and t2 is high in fat too, but also high in refined carbohydrates. Lchf diet, for example is high in fat (obviously), but takes out much of the carbohydrates... That would not be the same diet, would it? I don't know what the effect on the fgf1 response would be, but as scientists, they can't pick and choose what parts of a research project they want to disclose, not ethically anyhow. You could find three sets of lab rats, feed one a lchf diet, feed one a lclf diet, and feed one a SAD diet. Now, all is fine, but if you happen to mention that one of the groups also were given arsenic in their water, and that group died. Well, don't go blaming the diet. So if you say we gave them loads of fat (but "forget" to disclose the carb/protein levels) then it isn't the whole picture.

    Not being adversarial, just pointing out that the link did not give full disclosure of all the elements in the "scientific" comparison. :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,359
    Likes Received:
    1,665
    Trophy Points:
    198
    @Myangelsmom The actual research is available here
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4184286/

    The details of the methods is provided here:-
    "Mice were housed in a temperature-controlled environment with a 12-hr light/12-hr dark cycle and handled according to Salk IACUC guidelines complying with U.S. legislation. Male ob/ob mice (B6.V-Lepob/J, Jackson laboratories) and male C57BL/6J mice received a standard or high fat diet (MI laboratory rodent diet 5001, Harlan Teklad; high fat (60%) diet F3282, Bio-Serv) and acidified water ad libitum. STZ-induced diabetic mice in the C57BL/6J background were purchased from Jackson laboratories. aP2-Cre mice (B6.Cg-Tg(Fabp4-cre)1Rev/J, Jackson laboratories) were crossed to FGFR1 floxed mice (B6.129S4-Fgfr1tm5.1Sor/J, Jackson laboratories) to generate aP2-Cre; FGFR1 fl/fl mice. 0.1 mg/ml solutions in PBS of mouse FGF1 (Prospec, Ness Ziona, Israel), human FGF1 (Prospec, Ness Ziona, Israel), mouse FGF2 (Prospec, Ness Ziona, Israel), mouse FGF9 (Prospec, Ness Ziona, Israel), and mouse FGF10 (R&D systems) were injected as described. Heparin sodium salt (Sigma) was premixed with mFGF1 peptide prior to injection."
     
  15. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,359
    Likes Received:
    1,665
    Trophy Points:
    198
    I must add that it is rather challenging to a research on diet induce obesity where the high fat chow model is not used.

    Do share if any of you find one. :D
     
    • Like Like x 3
  16. SunnyExpat

    SunnyExpat Prefer not to say · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,230
    Likes Received:
    1,704
    Trophy Points:
    178

    I can't even begin to see where you get 'arsenic' from.
     
  17. Indy51

    Indy51 Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    5,528
    Likes Received:
    6,343
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Interesting review of exactly what a "high fat" diet in mouse models actually consists of - really glad I don't have to eat it ;)

    http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/welcome/features/20080702_diet_warden/

    "These studies' major failing, Warden said, is comparing mice fed high-fat "defined" diets, often consisting of 60 percent lard, 20 percent sucrose and 20 percent casein or milk protein — the mouse equivalent of "pork rinds, ribs and Coke" — with mice fed a vegetable-based high-fiber "undefined" diet called chow composed of varying amounts of carbohydrate, fat and protein."
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    #17 Indy51, May 27, 2016 at 7:27 AM
    Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2016
  18. SunnyExpat

    SunnyExpat Prefer not to say · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,230
    Likes Received:
    1,704
    Trophy Points:
    178
    It's interesting how a study of the effect of FGF1 on the brain seems to be about how a high fat diet was used to make mice fat to some, rather than the actual mechanism of how the brain may affect the body.
    Maybe if they hadn't said 'high fat' we'd all be happy, and move on?

    As to the diet, probably better than the dissection at the end if you were the mouse.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  19. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,359
    Likes Received:
    1,665
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Yes...lets leave the high fats discussion for other threads :)

    From the original study...FGF1 in the brain seems to be the magical key...
    This other study shows that we newly diagnose T2D should already have elevated level of FGF1 in serum, possibly compensatory as per elevated insulin ...how can we enable it to repair our neural circuits?
    http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/2680...-diagnosed-type-2-diabetes-compared-to-normal

    This study on resistance training also seems to provides some insights...on increasing FGF1...
    http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/2715...-after-8weeks-of-resistance-exercise-training
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. SunnyExpat

    SunnyExpat Prefer not to say · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,230
    Likes Received:
    1,704
    Trophy Points:
    178
    It would be good to find the 'switch' that is thrown to turn on type 2.
    This could be the start to explain that while obesity it a factor in many type 2, a lot of obese people never get it.
    And why exercise is so important to remain healthy, if there is an issue.
    I always thought it was simply my muscles were using glucose, but if the pathways improve, maybe it's not so simple.
     
  • Meet the Community

    Find support, connect with others, ask questions and share your experiences with people with diabetes, their carers and family.

    Did you know: 7 out of 10 people improve their understanding of diabetes within 6 months of being a Diabetes Forum member. Get the Diabetes Forum App and stay connected on iOS and Android

    Grab the app!
  • Tweet with us

  • Like us on Facebook