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Is "Reversed" the same as "In Remission?"

LooperCat said:
If you can’t eat carbohydrate without getting high BG then you still have diabetes.
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Or put another way - in the context of T2 at least - if you can't or don't want to eat those same carbohydrates then you won't have diabetes. T2 is a symptom of inappropriately managed glucose intolerance, not a disease in itself. By your rationale I was born with it, which is clearly not the case. I was born with a glucose intolerance as a result of having a low fat-building threshold, but since there is no need to consume glucose, it's moot.

"Normal" is a construct of society. Not necessarily what is ancestrally appropriate for all humans, and definitely not in all parts of the world, in all seasons. I'm in danger of wearing this phrase out, but "Life is not a carbohydrate eating competition" and never has been. Humans have always been able to thrive without it, and choosing not to eat it doesn't mean someone has diabetes, it means they don't have it because of their choice.

That is my view at least. You are of course free to disagree :D
 
bulkbiker said:
As is the huge increase in Obesity and T2 diabetes.. grains 15,000 years max.. meat 2.4 million go figure..
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I understand that some of the earliest evidence of high grain consumption is among the ancient Egyptians, whose bodies were also riddled with tooth decay and heart disease. Go figure indeed.
 
Jim Lahey said:
By your rationale I was born with it, which is clearly not the case.
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No, but you developed it. I wasn’t born with my own diabetes. But as neither of us can now eat carbohydrate without medication, we’re still diabetic. Just my personal opinion.
 
LooperCat said:
But as neither of us can now eat carbohydrate without medication, we’re still diabetic. Just my personal opinion.
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Actually I can and have, with no major blood glucose excursions. Not surprising with a HOMA-IR of 0.3. However, I choose to live without carbohydrate because I now prefer this way of eating (for many reasons other than prime glucose stability), and also I know that, if I didn’t stick to it, the diabetes would eventually return through the same mechanism that made it arise in the first place.

We already know that T1 is not reversible and is a completely different condition to T2. I don’t think drawing comparisons here is particularly relevant.
 
Jim Lahey said:
I understand that some of the earliest evidence of high grain consumption is among the ancient Egyptians, whose bodies were also riddled with tooth decay and heart disease. Go figure indeed.
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I didn't realise the Eatwell Guide was that old.
 
Jim Lahey said:
Actually I can and have, with no major blood glucose excursions. Not surprising with a HOMA-IR of 0.3. However, I choose to live without carbohydrate because I now prefer this way of eating (for many reasons other than prime glucose stability), and also I know that, if I didn’t stick to it, the diabetes would eventually return through the same mechanism that made it arise in the first place.

We already know that T1 is not reversible and is a completely different condition to T2. I don’t think drawing comparisons here is particularly relevant.
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I.e. you can’t eat like a non diabetic. Proving my point.
 
bulkbiker said:
Some of us probably could but choose not to?
I haven't taken medication since Nov 2015.
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To use another example - I have food allergy induced asthma, brought on by consuming certain foods, including cow’s dairy. I eat a lot of those things and I go into some fairly major respiratory distress, which I treat with salbutamol and usually feel horrible for a couple of days after. Understandably I avoid these foods because my body tells me it can’t tolerate them. I don’t get much, if any, reaction if I have a tiny bit of cow’s milk in something like a restaurant halloumi occasionally (while proper stuff is only sheep/goat milk, the catering variety usually contains cow’s milk as well, as it’s cheaper) - but if I were to eat it constantly, I’d get asthma symptoms every time I’m in contact with it.

My dairy intolerance seems similar in that way to your carbohydrate intolerance. If you have a little bit now and again, you remain asymptomatic; if you eat it regularly, diabetes symptoms come back. I could probably eat my own trigger foods in small amounts but choose not to - same as you.

Lack of symptoms through good management and avoidance of triggering foods doesn’t mean you don’t have it. Not needing the medication others take for it doesn’t mean you don’t have it. I’ve not needed an inhaler for over a year. I still have asthma - you still have type two diabetes. To say we don’t is just being in a certain Egyptian river.
 
LooperCat said:
To use another example - I have food allergy induced asthma, brought on by consuming certain foods, including cow’s dairy. I eat a lot of those things and I go into some fairly major respiratory distress, which I treat with salbutamol and usually feel horrible for a couple of days after. Understandably I avoid these foods because my body tells me it can’t tolerate them. I don’t get much, if any, reaction if I have a tiny bit of cow’s milk in something like a restaurant halloumi occasionally (while proper stuff is only sheep/goat milk, the catering variety usually contains cow’s milk as well, as it’s cheaper) - but if I were to eat it constantly, I’d get asthma symptoms every time I’m in contact with it.

My dairy intolerance seems similar in that way to your carbohydrate intolerance. If you have a little bit now and again, you remain asymptomatic; if you eat it regularly, diabetes symptoms come back. I could probably eat my own trigger foods in small amounts but choose not to - same as you.

Lack of symptoms through good management and avoidance of triggering foods doesn’t mean you don’t have it. Not needing the medication others take for it doesn’t mean you don’t have it. I’ve not needed an inhaler for over a year. I still have asthma - you still have type two diabetes. To say we don’t is just being in a certain Egyptian river.
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Maybe maybe not..
Just had this conversation on twitter almost contemporaneously..

Screenshot 2019-10-27 at 15.43.19.png
 
LooperCat said:
Regardless of type, can you count it as either if you can’t eat a diet that includes what is commonly regarded as a “normal” amount of carbohydrate without you blood sugars going out of a healthy range? I’d say not. If you can’t eat carbohydrate without getting high BG then you still have diabetes.

Food is medicine;
Medicine is medicine;
Insulin is medicine.

If you have to adjust any of these things out of line with what you did before diagnosis, then in my opinion you still have diabetes.

I went to my consultant on Friday to get a Dexcom, and she was concerned about my low Hba1c of 35, so I showed her this 3 month average chart that covered that period (to assuage her worries of too many hypos) and she actually said “you’ve cured your diabetes!” - to which I replied, sadly not but I do work very hard and make a lot of food sacrifices to manage it.

Non-diabetic levels do not mean you are cured of diabetes - just that you’re managing the condition (of whatever type) with food and/or medication. If you can’t eat whatever you want without your levels going silly, you’re still diabetic. Well managed isn’t cured or reversed.

View attachment 36411
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Yes. For us the right food is the medicine.
 
I've had another HBA1c test today and it has jumped up from 37 to 42 the last time measured 6 months ago.

I don't understand why.
My food intake has not changed, I am eating the same low carb food as before.
As far as I know, nothing has changed. On the plus side, some more weight loss since.

42 is still within a reasonable result but not happy with it.
Must try harder.
 
Jim Lahey said:
I understand that some of the earliest evidence of high grain consumption is among the ancient Egyptians, whose bodies were also riddled with tooth decay and heart disease. Go figure indeed.
Click to expand...
Yeah but they liked honey too and other good stuff. Probably didn’t clean their teeth.
 
LooperCat said:
To use another example - I have food allergy induced asthma, brought on by consuming certain foods, including cow’s dairy. I eat a lot of those things and I go into some fairly major respiratory distress, which I treat with salbutamol and usually feel horrible for a couple of days after. Understandably I avoid these foods because my body tells me it can’t tolerate them. I don’t get much, if any, reaction if I have a tiny bit of cow’s milk in something like a restaurant halloumi occasionally (while proper stuff is only sheep/goat milk, the catering variety usually contains cow’s milk as well, as it’s cheaper) - but if I were to eat it constantly, I’d get asthma symptoms every time I’m in contact with it.

My dairy intolerance seems similar in that way to your carbohydrate intolerance. If you have a little bit now and again, you remain asymptomatic; if you eat it regularly, diabetes symptoms come back. I could probably eat my own trigger foods in small amounts but choose not to - same as you.

Lack of symptoms through good management and avoidance of triggering foods doesn’t mean you don’t have it. Not needing the medication others take for it doesn’t mean you don’t have it. I’ve not needed an inhaler for over a year. I still have asthma - you still have type two diabetes. To say we don’t is just being in a certain Egyptian river.
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The asthma analogy is quite a good one.

Speaking to the GP that sits in on our PPG meeting, she said that those who have reversed their diabetes conditions are considered to be at risk of relapsing in the future. I imagine statistically that is probably likely although some will stay clear.

I tend to like that approach as it means they are keeping an eye on us. It also means I get another HbA1c test after 6 months, instead of a whole year.
 
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