Is T2D remission rare?

JBASS said:

My phrase "Ancestors" refers to 10,000 years ago - hunter/gatherers. Our primal, natural state in tune with "mother earth". It is pretty much guaranteed that if you drop carbohydrate levels to approximately 50g or less per day - and these carbs must come from good sources - real food that was available to us in that period, will lower blood glucose and eventually put the body into its' natural fat burning state. They did not have white bread (sugar), nor an abundance of sweet fruits year round. They had what they hunted and foraged. They lifted, heaved, walked, rested, played. They did not sit at desks eating rice heavy or grain heavy meals. They were physically superior to us in strength, muscle composition, speed and dynamics. All these traits were down to their lifestyle. Yes, some died young - but these were usually brought on from wounds in the hunt or an injury sustained, natural selection etc.

There are 2 books I highly recommend:

1. The Primal Blue Print by Mark Sissons - Very in depth and empowering book.
2. Diabetes? No Thanks! by Lars-Erik Litsfeldt - Easy to read and instantly helped me.

Try to emulate living this way for a while and notice the changes. Once one can feel and see the fantastic changes that occur once this type of lifestyle is adopted, I would hope that one would continue this way rather than succumb to the modern status quo.

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Ah I see where you're coming from. I'm not a believer in the evolution theory and the term hunters & gatherers which goes with that theory. But if that's something you believe in, then yeh I see your point. But that theory aside, it's common sense to control carbs in the diet to lower sugar levels. But circumstances are not the same for everyone. Eg. culture, access to wholesome foods, access to health care, etc.

As I said, I can only speak from my own experience and experimentation. If one were to follow the same path, I can pretty much guarantee results. There are a million excuses and reasons not to do something.....to be honest, I have looked death in the face - I had a TIA (minor stroke) in 2010 - which wasn't connected to diabetes - so the doctors say , so they came up with no conclusion as to why it happened. In my opinion, there are no excuses really. Everyone can lift things, everyone can exercise. I am not talking to people here living in a tent in he middle of a desert am I? We are online, so if one has access to this forum - there are NO excuses. One has to take their health into their own hands and stop lying to themselves and giving themselves reasons not to do something positive for themselves and their loved ones. Maybe taking a pill is a perceived easy route to wellness - but statistics and evidence clearly states that this method has failed as is only detrimental to ones well-being.

JBASS said:

More than anything, I mistrust the system - this is essential if one wants to succeed.

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And therein lies the difference. The vast majority do the opposite. The results are there to be seen.

Hmm....I think some of this discussion stems from the belief that meds are bad so therefore to come of meds is good. however I have been T2 diabetic in total for 10 years. Two years ago after the threat of insulin (I did not fancy the weight gain and faf) I went LCHF after weeks of research online. I lost 4 stone and since LCHF have had HBA1c of no greater than 34. The meds I take are 2 metformin. I stopped taking the metformin for about a month with no real difference to my BS however I read great things about metformin and how it helps with other aspects of health (lots of research out there on metformin) because of this I went back to taking 2 per day and have no intention of stopping. I have binned the statins though and my last lipid profile was TC 6.4 HDL 1.6 LDL 4.2 The doc thinks this is high but I refuse to discuss statins with him as my memory and general cognition declined albeit very slowly. In short do the research and make a decision. I review my situation almost on a month by month basis but I have never felt healthier than I do today. I think T2 Diabetes may have saved me from some very severe illnesses down the line had I not changed my lifestyle. Thats my positive spin on this disease, Go to the gym then go down the pub its all about balance

JBASS said:

As I said, I can only speak from my own experience and experimentation. If one were to follow the same path, I can pretty much guarantee results. There are a million excuses and reasons not to do something.....to be honest, I have looked death in the face - I had a TIA (minor stroke) in 2010 - which wasn't connected to diabetes - so the doctors say , so they came up with no conclusion as to why it happened. In my opinion, there are no excuses really. Everyone can lift things, everyone can exercise. I am not talking to people here living in a tent in he middle of a desert am I? We are online, so if one has access to this forum - there are NO excuses. One has to take their health into their own hands and stop lying to themselves and giving themselves reasons not to do something positive for themselves and their loved ones. Maybe taking a pill is a perceived easy route to wellness - but statistics and evidence clearly states that this method has failed as is only detrimental to ones well-being.

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I wouldn't say excuses... but there is definitely limitations. Eg. I can't talk properly, I can't walk without aggravating quite a number of conditions. Movement in general for me causes pain. So do you say to someone "no excuses", anyone can lift things, etc.? It's not necessarily true. It's probably ideal or wishful thinking though. It took me a while to realise there are things I can't do, well more to the point to 'accept' there are things I can't do. I have learnt to adapt and still continue to do that. You say you're speaking from your experience, but your experience is not the same as someone else's experience. I'm sorry to hear you had a stroke. I hope you had a good rehab for that (I've had family members have strokes). But ones reality is not the same as someone else's. For all of us with diabetes we don't all react the same. Eg. we need different insulin dosages, etc.

JBASS said:

My phrase "Ancestors" refers to 10,000 years ago - hunter/gatherers. Our primal, natural state in tune with "mother earth". It is pretty much guaranteed that if you drop carbohydrate levels to approximately 50g or less per day - and these carbs must come from good sources - real food that was available to us in that period, will lower blood glucose and eventually put the body into its' natural fat burning state. They did not have white bread (sugar), nor an abundance of sweet fruits year round. They had what they hunted and foraged. They lifted, heaved, walked, rested, played. They did not sit at desks eating rice heavy or grain heavy meals. They were physically superior to us in strength, muscle composition, speed and dynamics. All these traits were down to their lifestyle. Yes, some died young - but these were usually brought on from wounds in the hunt or an injury sustained, natural selection etc.

There are 2 books I highly recommend:

1. The Primal Blue Print by Mark Sissons - Very in depth and empowering book.
2. Diabetes? No Thanks! by Lars-Erik Litsfeldt - Easy to read and instantly helped me.

Try to emulate living this way for a while and notice the changes. Once one can feel and see the fantastic changes that occur once this type of lifestyle is adopted, I would hope that one would continue this way rather than succumb to the modern status quo.

Click to expand...

What proof do you have that our bodies default to, and our natural mode is, Fat Burning, i,e, ketosis.? Why do we have a natural predominance for carb to glucose metabolism, which our bodies default to nowadays? I do not believe it is evolution over such a short period of time. Yes we can force our bodies into ketosis, but it is not an easy or obvious process. It is by mimicing starvation, and it is triggering an emergency reaction by our bodies, I do not see it as our natural state at all.

I have no problem with following ketogenic diet as a diabetic since it makes sense as my carb metabolism pathway is compromised, but I do not recommend it for non diabetics except possibly as a weight loss program. It is after all a starvation diet that bypasses a perfectly good metabolism pathway.

I agree that we have become more sedentary in recent years, and that with abundant food supplies to hand, then we need a better strategy to control our binge eating, and desire for comfort foods, but to try to take it back to stone age man is not really realistic now for most people.

tim2000s said:

And therein lies the difference. The vast majority do the opposite. The results are there to be seen.

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Exactly - putting ones faith into a system which in reality is designed to harm, make customers of and control is insanity. Breaking those chains is the first step. The proof is always in the pudding. I am a scientist with an experiment, result and conclusion that has provided a positive result. There are no positive results with diabetes medications or mainstream advice.

Oldvatr said:

What proof do you have that our bodies default to, and our natural mode is, Fat Burning, i,e, ketosis.? Why do we have a natural predominance for carb to glucose metabolism, which our bodies default to nowadays? I do not believe it is evolution over such a short period of time. Yes we can force our bodies into ketosis, but it is not an easy or obvious process. It is by mimicing starvation, and it is triggering an emergency reaction by our bodies, I do not see it as our natural state at all.

I have no problem with following ketogenic diet as a diabetic since it makes sense as my carb metabolism pathway is compromised, but I do not recommend it for non diabetics except possibly as a weight loss program. It is after all a starvation diet that bypasses a perfectly good metabolism pathway.

I agree that we have become more sedentary in recent years, and that with abundant food supplies to hand, then we need a better strategy to control our binge eating, and desire for comfort foods, but to try to take it back to stone age man is not really realistic now for most people.

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As I keep saying, my proof is my own experimentation. I have lived this way since April and have never been fitter, healthier, stronger, more alert than I had ever been. My physique is something to be very proud of too.

I'm not going to get into any debate, because I have the proof, the results, the physique that turns heads - I feel proud as a peacock. You either do it or you find excuses not to. It really isn't my problem. I am winning despite negativity - there is my proof.

Mep said:

I wouldn't say excuses... but there is definitely limitations. Eg. I can't talk properly, I can't walk without aggravating quite a number of conditions. Movement in general for me causes pain. So do you say to someone "no excuses", anyone can lift things, etc.? It's not necessarily true. It's probably ideal or wishful thinking though. It took me a while to realise there are things I can't do, well more to the point to 'accept' there are things I can't do. I have learnt to adapt and still continue to do that. You say you're speaking from your experience, but your experience is not the same as someone else's experience. I'm sorry to hear you had a stroke. I hope you had a good rehab for that (I've had family members have strokes). But ones reality is not the same as someone else's. For all of us with diabetes we don't all react the same. Eg. we need different insulin dosages, etc.

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I didn't need rehab, in fact there was zero damage - On top of that, they only diagnosed it as a stroke 3 months after the event....this is how useless the system can be.

I'm going to say ********. does one not watch the para-olympics? There are NO excuses. I'll leave you with that thought.

Here's a fantastic guy called CT Fletcher - he had open heart surgery and is an advocate of the NO EXCUSE methodology. I try to inspire......

https://www.youtube.com/user/CTTheTrainer?hl=en-GB&gl=GB

JBASS said:

I didn't need rehab, in fact there was zero damage - On top of that, they only diagnosed it as a stroke 3 months after the event....this is how useless the system can be.

I'm going to say ********. does one not watch the para-olympics? There are NO excuses. I'll leave you with that thought.

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Excuse me? Is that directed at my limitations? I jolly well hope not. Just to put in perspective I could get up ready to talk, open my mouth and the words do not come out. Is that an excuse? No, it's a limitation. If I can't talk, I can't talk... that simple. Totally different altogether from a so called 'excuse'. It's not appropriate to say there are no excuses. The only time that may be true is if someone had no limitations and reason but just didn't want to do something.... then you can say that's just an excuse.

JBASS said:

Exactly - putting ones faith into a system which in reality is designed to harm, make customers of and control is insanity.

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Again, I think your view of the world is somewhat skewed. Whilst I'd agree that the system's current approach seems to be based on bad or non-existent science, I don't think it's fair to the many healthcare professionals in the system to suggest that their purpose is to harm and make customers for pharma companies.

JBASS said:

As I keep saying, my proof is my own experimentation. I have lived this way since April and have never been fitter, healthier, stronger, more alert than I had ever been. My physique is something to be very proud of too.

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It's great that you've done so well, but you're also an n=1 sample, and as any good statistician will tell you, an n=1 sample can never be taken as a representation of a population.

tim2000s said:

Again, I think your view of the world is somewhat skewed. Whilst I'd agree that the system's current approach seems to be based on bad or non-existent science, I don't think it's fair to the many healthcare professionals in the system to suggest that their purpose is to harm and make customers for pharma companies.


It's great that you've done so well, but you're also an n=1 sample, and as any good statistician will tell you, an n=1 sample can never be taken as a representation of a population.

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I didn't say that healthcare professionals intend to do harm, it is the system they are educated by and for that does intend to do harm. Most HCP's do not question the memos that get handed down, and most do not even research anything whatsoever. Hence my HCP's asking my advice on what to eat to help them lose weight.

I

Mep said:

Excuse me? Is that directed at my limitations? I jolly well hope not. Just to put in perspective I could get up ready to talk, open my mouth and the words do not come out. Is that an excuse? No, it's a limitation. If I can't talk, I can't talk... that simple. Totally different altogether from a so called 'excuse'. It's not appropriate to say there are no excuses. The only time that may be true is if someone had no limitations and reason but just didn't want to do something.... then you can say that's just an excuse.

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I do not understand why not being able to talk has any effect on being able to move, walk, lift....does verbal communication or lack of prevent arms from moving? I am a little confused to say the least!

The only excuse in my opinion is when someone has LOST their body functions or is dead. I can see you have a plethora of conditions and feel for you, however, I do not know what your lifestyle was or is. I've been run over by a car and shattered my pelvis when I was 12, fell off a roof and broke legs at 13, had a TIA at 38, diagnosed with diabetes at 43........so what? everyone has a life story, everyone can make up a million excuses, but not being able to TALK is a lame excuse for not moving!

JBASS said:

I


I do not understand why not being able to talk has any effect on being able to move, walk, lift....does verbal communication or lack of prevent arms from moving? I am a little confused to say the least!

The only excuse in my opinion is when someone has LOST their body functions or is dead. I can see you have a plethora of conditions and feel for you, however, I do not know what your lifestyle was or is. I've been run over by a car and shattered my pelvis when I was 12, fell off a roof and broke legs at 13, had a TIA at 38, diagnosed with diabetes at 43........so what? everyone has a life story, everyone can make up a million excuses, but not being able to TALK is a lame excuse for not moving!

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That was one of my limitations I mentioned. You are quick to judge people aren't you. When I say I have limitations, I'm not kidding. I don't have to explain to you all the reasons why walking, lifting, and many activities affects me.... pain you wouldn't have a clue about unless you have it. I wouldn't pretend to know what you've been through either. But I tell you one thing, I will never tell you "no excuses" as that would just be an arrogant comment for me to make. As for you comment about para-olympians, they are doing their sport working around their limitations. You can't do what you can't do period... unless you can find a prop or someone else to help you do it.

I wish you well on your quest for health Mep. I mean that sincerely. However, each of us make our own choices where you can either fight it or just accept it. I am a warrior type so fighting is in my blood. I have made my choices and those choices are refusing ALL medications, vaccinations for "disease".

Anyhow, I hope this post serves as an inspiration to others that wish to follow a particular path, and others that don't?.... well, there are plenty of topics and forums about balancing food with drugs and drugs with food etc, discussing medications and all that sort of stuff.

If anyone who is interested in how this can work for them, I am happy to speak to privately.

JBASS said:

I wish you well on your quest for health Mep. I mean that sincerely. However, each of us make our own choices where you can either fight it or just accept it. I am a warrior type so fighting is in my blood. I have made my choices and those choices are refusing ALL medications, vaccinations for "disease".

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I wish you the best too. But please consider how you say things to others. You may be on this personal quest of yours but your mentality doesn't work for everyone. Believe me I've tried doing what I can't do... what happens is I suffer big time. So I learn to live to lessen the suffering, which turns out to be a plus as I can then get to work and pay my bills, etc. It's a wise choice to adapt and work within my limitations and by no means does it mean I'm not a fighter, or I must be failure, or that I've given up. I am a fighter. I have no choice but to take medications, I've tried no medications. I would not function without medications. I live life the best I can do so. Again, please don't think your reality applies to everyone, because it doesn't.

ickihun said:

I hope @PenfoldAPD sees this as he was wondering how everyone states they're in remission on no meds but we are finding it near on impossible. I've told him some are having us on. If all posters who are in success stories had no meds and 2 excellent hba1cs then it would be more than 140, by far. I'm realistic, always have been. Accept what you can change but accept what you carnt for your own sanity, if nothing else.
I don't mind searching for the golden chalice so I can have it's knowledge. Maintaining it for a lifetime? - like in football, not even fergie could keep the trophies for a lifetime. Now that is the true fallacy!
I bet far less than 140 can keep up lifetime maintanence.
This doesn't mean give up and go to bed and stay there. Do YOUR bit and keep the demon (complications) abay!

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Ickihun, with respect, I find your post insulting to people who have achieved excellent things with their diabetes. I doubt any single one of them would profess to be perfect, but effectively saying those people are not necessarily being straightforward and disingenuous is unkind and unnecessary.

These are my own scores, since diagnosis, and I can assure you they are all genuine. The date with the * beside it merely indicates a set of bloods done overseas.



It doesn't do any favours questioning others' integrity and at the same time expect everyone to respect that your own. I'm not suggesting you are otherwise, just making a point.

I am making this post as a Forum member, not as a moderator.

JBASS said:

Exactly - putting ones faith into a system which in reality is designed to harm, make customers of and control is insanity. Breaking those chains is the first step. The proof is always in the pudding. I am a scientist with an experiment, result and conclusion that has provided a positive result. There are no positive results with diabetes medications or mainstream advice.


As I keep saying, my proof is my own experimentation. I have lived this way since April and have never been fitter, healthier, stronger, more alert than I had ever been. My physique is something to be very proud of too.

I'm not going to get into any debate, because I have the proof, the results, the physique that turns heads - I feel proud as a peacock. You either do it or you find excuses not to. It really isn't my problem. I am winning despite negativity - there is my proof.

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Proud as a Peacock? - now theres a thought!

Most of what you say I can also say from my own journey (and diet), except that I had 2 strokes, fried half my braincells, then had a heart attack but still went back to work and finally retired on full pension well after NRA, as a volunteer. I am classed as fit to drive, and have not seen the heart/ stroke team for over 5 years. after full discharge. This year I also got full discharge from needing to be monitored by the Diabetes Specialist whereas a year ago I was being groomed for insulin. My diet and my bullheadedness changed all that. I too have reasons to be proud even though I am on a different path to you.

I will always be diabetic, and cannot claim Remission, but I am at least classed as Resolved and In Control, and my GP has set my next HbA1c for 1 years time, i.e. annual revue.

JBASS said:

I didn't need rehab, in fact there was zero damage - On top of that, they only diagnosed it as a stroke 3 months after the event....this is how useless the system can be.

I'm going to say ********. does one not watch the para-olympics? There are NO excuses. I'll leave you with that thought.

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OO you old charmer..
So after 6 months of being diagnosed you have all the answers? And you have cured yourself for life? really?
I too am an advocate of taking control and doing stuff. I have lost a shedload of weight and brought my HbA1c down significantly. I follow a ketogenic diet and fast often. However I don't preach to people that my way is the only way( although a few here would disagree with that!). I try to guide where I think my help is wanted not shout "********" at people. I think that is a far better way to educate and assist.. but hey that's just me.

Wow, where is this going, we are all on the same side. I kind of get where @JBASS is coming from for those of us who are lucky enough to respond to exercise in particular combined with a controlled diet, but would temper this with the variances within our peers. Having read many posts it is also clear that some Type 2's have a constitution and or other conditions that prevent or inhibit massive changes in numbers, for example I do not get a morning liver dump, which for others this is a reality. I note that @bulkbiker has excellent results going into ketosis and fasting, which I have totally bottled. I have thrown myself into moderate low carb regime with HiiT cardio and weights and am lucky enough to have a fat % of 11.5%, although my BMI is borderline overweight. I know I am muscle bound so yes the "system" measures do not work for me. I understand @JBASS's advocation of weight and strength training as the GLUT4 response definitely works for me, and I would say anyone who builds muscle easily, but I come from a sports background so have a obsessive personality. I think remission is possible, but a cure in the current "carby" climate I think is not realistic, as "normal" would have to be changed from what is mainstream. Recently I was in the Lake District, where a "normal" lunch in a café we entered was meat pie, chips and beans. I am in Alicante for a couple of days right now and the "normal" is not much better. I would encourage all diabetics to be the best "you" you can be.