Is the CIM really dead or...

[bulkbiker]

Not sure why you're directly insulting Kevin.

He's been fairly rude to me, and many others, a number of times.

My main concern about you is your dangerously high blood sugar levels and your apparent lack of concern about them.

You are experimenting on yourself in a fairly dangerous way and not getting good results.

Your vegan diet is doing you no favours and in one thread you said that the time you felt best was when keto.

I like to think I'm a fairly logical person and see little logic in the path you are currently pursuing.. and can therefore not really see my way to supporting it when you imply it might be good for others too.

I spend time on the forum trying to help others achieve remission without damaging themselves and hope that in quite a few cases I have been able to do that.

Good luck in the future.

 

[zand]

I also share your experience, although I'd guess mine is 100% psychological. It didn't start that way, back as a kind. But I view the process as a self-fulfilling/self-defeating process, which certainly makes sense in my case.

If LC is the only thing that has worked, then do what you have to do. I'd suggest a different outlook on the diets that you found didn't work, but ultimately, just like the question "What is the best exercise?" The best answer is "The one you stick to".

With regard to cardio not helping, I think that's a question of perspective. I used to believe that cardio could be tapped into to a much greater extent than it probably can. Having read Herman Pontzer's 'Burn', a little, I tend to think about things differently. That's not to say that cardio can't be effective, it's just there will come a point (perhaps sooner, rather than later), when the body fights back. It may not be apparent in the workout, at that current moment, but the body has ways of down-cycling that often go unnoticed (reduction of NEPA, NEAT etc.). Ultimately, cardio should be done for all the other benefits it offers, and should definitely be part of the CO side of the equation. But for overall long-term weight success, either leaning more into the CI side, or better still just viewing loss over a much longer period seems to bring many folk more chances at long-term success.

But no, the weight doesn't magically fall off.Nothing magic about any of it It's often very hard work, especially after the initial bulk drop. But as cliché as it is, it's definitely useful to keep in mind how long it took to accrue the weigh, originally

Sounds like you subscribe to the Eat less move more fatty method. Trouble is the CI side of the equation can't keep being reduced forever. What then? I was getting unwell (7 chest infections in 7 months) and decided to give up trying to lose weight. I expect you will dispute that there is such a thing as starvation mode.
Nowadays I know that low carb is the answer to good nutrition at least.

 

[zand]

You cannot burn stored fat for energy if insulin is high. Insulin will likely be high if the person has diabetic pathology, whether or not their blood glucose is being kept at reasonable levels, or whether or not they’re hungry. A massively obese person can run a hundred miles and will not be able to burn much, or any, stored fat so long as insulin is still frantically trying to keep their glucose at manageable levels. In such settings insulin levels remain high almost always, even if blood glucose appears normal.

The body simply will not access the stored energy, but it will definitely make more fat if you continue to eat glucose. Essentially the flow of fat energy becomes a one way street until insulin levels are low enough, which won’t happen overnight. If one gets their preponderance of overall energy from dietary fat, there is a massively lower requirement for insulin to deal with the mopping up of glucose. Therefore giving the person a much better chance of lowering insulin levels long term.

I can’t explain my understanding any clearer than that.

Perfectly explained This fits in with my lived experience.

 

[zand]

@Beating-My-Betes I agree with @bulkbiker . I don't understand why you are happy to tell others what to do when it clearly isn't working for you. I hope you find a plan that works for you soon.

 

[Member496333]

Again...your model fails to explain how a growing number of diabetics who greatly increase their carb-intake, not only lose a ton of weight (Presuming they needed to) but also put (or are getting close to putting) their T2D into remission.

It does not, you’re correct. But then I have found that the definition of remission seems to dramatically vary. I don’t doubt for a moment that some people are able to achieve a level of success, but I think they’ll be in a vanishingly small minority and may not be able to maintain for life. We see this with the extremely low calorie diet studies where remission is defined as pre diabetic and ignores insulin entirely.

 

[Member496333]

Here’s a hypothesis that may warrant some consideration.

Since T2DM can be thought of as an overfilling of the fat storage limits - the personal fat threshold - it’s perhaps plausible that this can happen almost entirely by consuming vast quantities of dietary fat. Insulin is required in order to make fat from glucose, but the same is not true of fat that is eaten, so perhaps some people are able to become diabetic without hyperinsulinemia as the major aetiology. In these individuals it would stand to reason that by only reducing calories, they might be able to free up some adipose capacity and remove the diabetes that way.

This seems unlikely to me since most people consuming huge amounts of fat will probably be doing so in the setting of a SAD diet equally high in carbohydrate. But then who really knows. These things are always a spectrum. However uncommon it may be, this would at least seem like a possible mechanism that may go some way to explaining why some are able to tame their diabetes with a high carb lower calorie diet - maybe they didn’t really have hyperinsulinemia at all.

Never really given this much thought but it does potentially explain many a paradox in the world of metabolic meltdown.

 

[LaoDan]

I actually believe energy balance is correct. I also believe fine tuning the macros is super important too! It’s the icing on the cake… sorry…

If a new T2 were to ask me for advice, I’d recommend, a meter and low carb 100% of the time, it’s definitely the right tool to get out of that bad spot.

Currently, I believe eating whole, or at least not overly processed foods, focusing on protein, in a energy balance is a good way to avoid metabolic issues.

If you don’t want to track macros and calories, just do keto/carnivore because it just works out if the box.

 

[KK123]

Great post albeit I have barely understood a word of it. All I know is that it's a complicated phenomenon but common to it all is that fewer carbs equals a lesser insulin response. As for obesity, well there can be many, many reasons for that including genetics. How can any of us really know the numerous factors that come into pathology and I really don't like it when people make ridiculous assumptions about how a person came to acquire a health condition leading to 'if only they did this or that....'

 

[Oldvatr]

I actually believe energy balance is correct. I also believe fine tuning the macros is super important too! It’s the icing on the cake… sorry…

If a new T2 were to ask me for advice, I’d recommend, a meter and low carb 100% of the time, it’s definitely the right tool to get out of that bad spot.

Currently, I believe eating whole, or at least not overly processed foods, focusing on protein, in a energy balance is a good way to avoid metabolic issues.

If you don’t want to track macros and calories, just do keto/carnivore because it just works out if the box.

I agree in part.

I should point out that your signature has the statement gym addict, and that your posts often refer to fitness training and exercise. I think that for the more active person, then CICO needs to be adddressed to cover the physical activities they undertake. But for many of us, the concept of exercise is limited to putting our clothes on in the morning and running to the loo. T2D has a preponderance of elderly folk, and this cohort generally does not do HIIT or cardio or even resistance . But LC diets can be beneficial to both of us and seems to work well even for the sedentary. LC diets can also be applied to insulin dependants too by helping reduce the insulin requirements and flattening the peaks and troughs.

 

[Oldvatr]

I will add my two pennorth. 30 yoears ago i was dx'ed T2D. Prior to that I ate with gay abandon. after that i went eatwell, and introduced the GI and GL concepts (Glycemic Index and Load). I increased my weight from what had been a steady 9 stone weakling to a whopping near 18 stone pregnant male (or at least that is how my daughter described my new blimp feature). I have never ever counted calories even to this day. I have never followed any weight reduction plan. I found this forum, and from the information I gleaned I learnt to apply the LCHF diet to my lifestyle. Within a month or so I had tamed my diabetes, and my waistband went from 38" down to 30". I learnt that a carb rating of less than 5 g per 100 g (5%) was good, and added that to my control regime. That is all the carb counting I have ever done. I have no idea what my macro's are doing wrt CICO, and no real idea of how many carbs i consume in a day. i just read labels and eat to my meter. it works. 5 year on, I still weigh less than 10 stone, and my 30" jeans require braces to keep them from falling down around my knees. My sugars remain in a good place (sugar belongs in the cupboard, not my tummy) so for me CIM is not dead, and CICO does not apply. Eatwell can go hang.

 

[Outlier]

Stunning success Oldvatr, and with your now-slim figure you can easily reach to pat yourself on the back - as you should.

 

[Oldvatr]

Stunning success Oldvatr, and with your now-slim figure you can easily reach to pat yourself on the back - as you should.

Thank you. Actually being able to see my feet and count the family jewels in the bath was my Huzzah moment. I did get fat adapted on keto for a while, but I lost too much padding off my posterior, and sitting in the bath was no longerr a painless experience. I know I was fat adapted since i was getting readings in the 2's and was able to cope with them easily. i even played a hand or two of solitaire and did a jigsaw while under the limit. Just has a slight problem with vision so tested, I think I was 2.1 that time. Now I have dialled back a bit (my GP wants me flying round the control tower at 7 mmol/l instead of the 5 I was aiming for. Places me back into prediabetic but should still be reducing the comorbidities. My most recent HbA1c was taken just after I left hospital after 2 weeks of Eatwell and all my diabetic sweeties banned. it came in at 45. I have recovered some of that ground again since, and my averages are running at around 6 using lowish carb highish fat.