Is there any science behind the claim that fat is the enemy (not carbs)?

Oldvatr

Expert
Messages
8,470
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
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How long again have you been eating low carb to get your numbers down like that?

Is your fasting in the 4s now too?

I had the highest fasting reading ever this morning.. it was 5.8 mmol. (I tested again in the same minute and it was the same). I notice the day after I reintroduce some carbs it always hits me in the fasting. I didn't eat that many carbs yesterday though. I just never get enough sleep and I know that's not helping. I'd probably had only 5 hours sleep when I took that test at 8am this morning.

I tried steel cut oats again this morning but I had one egg just before it. I calculated that the 200g of cooked oats amounted to around 30 grams of carbs (I think). Before was 5.7mmol. 30 mins was 7.9mmol. 1 hour was 5.6mmol and 2 hours was 5.6mmol. That seems okay, doesn't it? Not that I want to eat oats anymore because they take so much longer to make than eggs and they give me heartburn. I just wondered if my body can take it at all more than a year after going low carb. It has definitely improved.

I love how you show your meals. I'm looking at the plate of nuts though and wondering if that affects your bowel movement after working out that the macadamia nuts I was eating (probably a few too many off) seemed to be blocking me up... That was often on top of eating almond or hazelnut meal in some sort of low carb pancake.

Today we are eating Sarma that my Serbian husband made :)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13FRRzLppesywkhohvvlZ2WvW26CUlB7h/view?usp=sharing

(Is there a trick to getting your images to show on the page? It works when I post video links but never when I try with photos.. I've put my photo on Google Drive so I can use the link but it still doesn't work. And the link only comes up as a link.)


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Your images are in .PNG format. Try converting to jpg instead and they may display. Your avatar is a .jpg so it displays in the post.

Users here can right click on the [IMG[ and then select view image and this works on my PC, but probably only because i have an image editor that can accept pngs.
 

zuckerhonig

Member
Messages
19
Type of diabetes
Type 2
I get sick of the contradictions when it comes to the LCHF vs LF/vegan diets that claim to help prevent or reverse diabetes. I guess either diet must help certain people but is there any science behind the claim that fat is the enemy because it gets into cells and stops insulin from working properly (the say animal fats)?
https://www.forksoverknives.com/suc...pped-all-medications-with-a-plant-based-diet/

Personally I've been eating LCHF but am pulling back on the fat to make sure I burn the fat stored in my body. It's been great so far but I do go back to the odd small serving of carbs because ketosis affects my sleep (gives me insomnia despite taking magnesium supplements - possibly because I don't get enough exercise, despite chasing 3 small children around all day). So I still find myself eating some carbs here and there. Grain carbs are the ones I enjoy the taste of (they are rather addictive, aren't they?) but they give me heartburn and bloating). Vegetables carbs are great (if more time consuming to prepare) but I've noticed bloating, constipation or diarrhea from large amounts of certain vegetables. Nuts too though give me constipation. Fats do the opposite.

One thing us for sure, while eating low carb, blood sugar remains stable.

I read another claim that when first switching from low carb to vegan, blood sugar readings increase at first but drop in the long run. Has anyone found any scientific evidence of this?

I guess in another 50 years we'll have some proper long-term evidence of how the Low Carb High Fat (with its cholesterol raising tendencies) vs Low Fat & / or Vegetarian diets really affect us but will the quality of our mass produced food have changed again as much as it has in the last 50 years? Are we better off eating grain-fed hormone-filled animals or pesticide-laden vegetables if they are our only affordable choices?

The simple answer is: NO! That is, if you disclude the rather murky world of advertising science. The dietary guidelines that have informed our 'healthy' choices since the 1980s - the demonisation of fat and cholesterol - have been quietly dropped from the most recent update of the guidelines.

If you are willing to do a little homework for yourself, you will also discover that many other 'everybody knows that' dietary 'truths' - breakfast is the most important meal of the day; eat something at least every 2 hours; 5 a day, to mention but a few -are also the spawn of the advertising industry.

As you will discover, this is the very advice that has got us to where we are,and it would be disastrous to continue accepting and following guidelines that have made us fat and diabetic to begin with.

Personally, by ignoring this advice, that is to say, cutting out rice, potatoes, pasta, bread and all the so-called 'healthy grains' (sugar, of course!) and replacing it with green veggies, meat, eggs, dairy and fish, I have put my diabetes into remission without recourse to medication. That happened very quickly - within weeks - and three years on, I am 25 kg lighter, eat like a king. No calorie counting, weighing out portions, or starving myself.

I also started on black rice, whole, pinhead oats, lentils and the like - along with the meat, fish, eggs and dairy, but, whilst I still eat the greens, I gradually cut out the 'healthier' carbs too. I found that all that nonsense about sweet potatoes being better for diabetics than normal spuds just didn't pan out for me. In fact, anytime I ate the recommended diabetic alternatives my blood sugar would shoot up to 8 within an hour of eating. By shifting to a more animal based diet, I rarely go above 6 even an hour after eating.

The first book I read about coping with diabetes did mention that mileage may vary. I, too, have read about vegans who manage to control blood sugar levels on a plant based diet. However, as a youngster I was a vegetarian for six years, only giving up when I got so skinny, anemic and injury prone - and that was with dairy and eggs! Forgive me if I don't fancy that again, especially as an old timer, where we need more protein than our younger selves.

As for the 50 years later...Well, all we can hope to achieve is a perceptible improvement of our current state of health. Regardless of what any organisation or individual tells you, the best advice is to test your blood sugar regularly when you eat foods you are unsure of. And, btw, not just after two hours. By then - unless you've eaten a whole bag of jelly babies and guzzled a couple of litres of Pepsi - it's too late to assess if you are on the right track. Many advise that you test 30, 60, 90 and 120 mins after consuming something novel. That is how I discovered early on that sweet potatoes and pinhead porridge - whilst better that bread or sticky toffee pudding -were less than ideal for me. Of course, there is no need to do this indefinitely. I only test occasionally now. But then, if I eat a big green salad for lunch with tinned salmon and a couple of eggs, followed by some full fat Greek yogurt, I don't have to.

If your blood sugar is normally under control - except when you fall off the wagon and hit the carbs - well, you are on the right track. Best of luck!
 

Cocosilk

Well-Known Member
Messages
818
Type of diabetes
Gestational
Treatment type
Insulin
Your images are in .PNG format. Try converting to jpg instead and they may display. Your avatar is a .jpg so it displays in the post.

Users here can right click on the [IMG[ and then select view image and this works on my PC, but probably only because i have an image editor that can accept pngs.
Okay, thanks! I'll try that.
 

Mbaker

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,339
Type of diabetes
Type 2 (in remission!)
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Available fast foods in Supermarkets
view


How long again have you been eating low carb to get your numbers down like that?

Is your fasting in the 4s now too?

I had the highest fasting reading ever this morning.. it was 5.8 mmol. (I tested again in the same minute and it was the same). I notice the day after I reintroduce some carbs it always hits me in the fasting. I didn't eat that many carbs yesterday though. I just never get enough sleep and I know that's not helping. I'd probably had only 5 hours sleep when I took that test at 8am this morning.

I tried steel cut oats again this morning but I had one egg just before it. I calculated that the 200g of cooked oats amounted to around 30 grams of carbs (I think). Before was 5.7mmol. 30 mins was 7.9mmol. 1 hour was 5.6mmol and 2 hours was 5.6mmol. That seems okay, doesn't it? Not that I want to eat oats anymore because they take so much longer to make than eggs and they give me heartburn. I just wondered if my body can take it at all more than a year after going low carb. It has definitely improved.

I love how you show your meals. I'm looking at the plate of nuts though and wondering if that affects your bowel movement after working out that the macadamia nuts I was eating (probably a few too many off) seemed to be blocking me up... That was often on top of eating almond or hazelnut meal in some sort of low carb pancake.

Today we are eating Sarma that my Serbian husband made :)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13FRRzLppesywkhohvvlZ2WvW26CUlB7h/view?usp=sharing

(Is there a trick to getting your images to show on the page? It works when I post video links but never when I try with photos.. I've put my photo on Google Drive so I can use the link but it still doesn't work. And the link only comes up as a link.)

I have been meaning to look over some older posts for a while. Here's one from early 2017:

upload_2020-6-22_13-47-57.png


I was exercising at high intensity then (which I have started again today (walk heart rate from circa 120 to 135). I am guessing that at the end of 2015 I was around the late 4's nd early 5's for fbg. I remember being inspired by those posting fbg's every and getting mid 4's without medication. I did think this was beyond me, as my initial HbA1c was so high, but I increased my HiT and resistance training, and went from low GI to LCHF. I am in the 4's everyday for fbg. I have tested with aroun 6 different meters and the Libre, they always average at 4.3 -4.4 mmol.

So I have been variations of low carb for approaching 5 years, when initially being more plant based. I lean towards LCHP. My diet is a mixture of of LCHF, Keto, Carnivore, Mediterranean, Akins, Body Building - testing, testing and more testing. The "rules" I change are inclusive of:
  1. Butternut squash (rest of the family have dropped potatoes and rice for this, so helps for 1 single main meal)
  2. Beetroot (part of my blood pressure protocol, along with garlic and celery - today 123 / 73, from 140 something over 80 something)
  3. Lemon / limes and from last week tangerines. Noticed a couple of years ago at Disney World US that I could do tangerine like oranges as the hotel did not have berries. My Libre showed I was fine.
Like you I don't specifically add fat. I am at 15% body fat, my ketones from last week were 0.4 - 0.6, and on OMAD I do not suffer, so I am both fat and ketone adapted. I am convinced by Ted Naimen, i.e. get fat adapted then pull back and focus on protein if you want body composition.

I would suggest you find your why. The carbs you introduce are for what reason, my inclusion of beetroot has meaning. Are you prepared to put up with a spike, can you cover it with exercise. I gave my brother my other Libre unit yesterday, so I only have a week to test fat loss, I have to ensure sleep is spot on, I would prioritise this within the top 2 areas of concern.

I did the wall paper paste thing, otherwise known as oats, even measuring out 30 grams. In my previous post I showed the coconut flakes, these have 4 times less carbs and provide the "grind" oats does and the fibrous fill; again this is personal tolerances; I would not accept a 2.2 rise (1.5 for me max), and 7.8 is when minute damage is said to occur.

The nuts are me hanging on to the past - we all have our vices. This is actually reduced from my previous breakfast bowl full (not joking). I will and must halve this amount, this is ridiculously excessive on the first plate on the left. If I want my body composition goals I can have half my cake and eat it, as I was stuffed, and the salmon and eggs was devine.

upload_2020-6-22_15-18-48.png

I am did cover this with a 20 minute fast walk and and HiT based 7 minute weights session.

Your Sarma looks great and filling. I looked up the recipe https://www.thespruceeats.com/serbian-stuffed-cabbage-recipe-sarma-1136569, what a great low carb meal. I am definitely going to try this and some of the associated meals on the same page.

Your images might be too large to just paste in. You may need to use a photo editor to crop and maybe save to around 200 x 200. If this sounds like another language ask a friend or a teenager to show you.


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Cocosilk

Well-Known Member
Messages
818
Type of diabetes
Gestational
Treatment type
Insulin
The simple answer is: NO! That is, if you disclude the rather murky world of advertising science. The dietary guidelines that have informed our 'healthy' choices since the 1980s - the demonisation of fat and cholesterol - have been quietly dropped from the most recent update of the guidelines.

If you are willing to do a little homework for yourself, you will also discover that many other 'everybody knows that' dietary 'truths' - breakfast is the most important meal of the day; eat something at least every 2 hours; 5 a day, to mention but a few -are also the spawn of the advertising industry.

As you will discover, this is the very advice that has got us to where we are,and it would be disastrous to continue accepting and following guidelines that have made us fat and diabetic to begin with.

Personally, by ignoring this advice, that is to say, cutting out rice, potatoes, pasta, bread and all the so-called 'healthy grains' (sugar, of course!) and replacing it with green veggies, meat, eggs, dairy and fish, I have put my diabetes into remission without recourse to medication. That happened very quickly - within weeks - and three years on, I am 25 kg lighter, eat like a king. No calorie counting, weighing out portions, or starving myself.

I also started on black rice, whole, pinhead oats, lentils and the like - along with the meat, fish, eggs and dairy, but, whilst I still eat the greens, I gradually cut out the 'healthier' carbs too. I found that all that nonsense about sweet potatoes being better for diabetics than normal spuds just didn't pan out for me. In fact, anytime I ate the recommended diabetic alternatives my blood sugar would shoot up to 8 within an hour of eating. By shifting to a more animal based diet, I rarely go above 6 even an hour after eating.

The first book I read about coping with diabetes did mention that mileage may vary. I, too, have read about vegans who manage to control blood sugar levels on a plant based diet. However, as a youngster I was a vegetarian for six years, only giving up when I got so skinny, anemic and injury prone - and that was with dairy and eggs! Forgive me if I don't fancy that again, especially as an old timer, where we need more protein than our younger selves.

As for the 50 years later...Well, all we can hope to achieve is a perceptible improvement of our current state of health. Regardless of what any organisation or individual tells you, the best advice is to test your blood sugar regularly when you eat foods you are unsure of. And, btw, not just after two hours. By then - unless you've eaten a whole bag of jelly babies and guzzled a couple of litres of Pepsi - it's too late to assess if you are on the right track. Many advise that you test 30, 60, 90 and 120 mins after consuming something novel. That is how I discovered early on that sweet potatoes and pinhead porridge - whilst better that bread or sticky toffee pudding -were less than ideal for me. Of course, there is no need to do this indefinitely. I only test occasionally now. But then, if I eat a big green salad for lunch with tinned salmon and a couple of eggs, followed by some full fat Greek yogurt, I don't have to.

If your blood sugar is normally under control - except when you fall off the wagon and hit the carbs - well, you are on the right track. Best of luck!

Sound advice! I am getting used to eating low carb now. It does get easier, doesn't it? And you are right about testing more than just at 2 hours. I had porridge yesterday for the first time in ages, just to see how my body would cope, and I was only going to do the 1h and 2 hour tests but got curious at around 30 mins, and lucky I checked then because that's when I was spiking to 8.7mmol, and by 1h I was surprised to see I was back at 5.4, where it stayed for the next hour (5.6 mmol).
I would have completely missed that spike if I'd only done the 2 hour, even the 1hr and the 2 hour!

I don't think I will ever go back to eating any large amount of carbs. But I just like the idea that I could occasionally still eat something if I just want to try it and not feel so restricted like I have done over the past year while I was fearing that I was close to getting T2. But I think I'll still go back to low carb even if I had a few days of carbs again here and there. I've eaten too much today and I don't feel good. I can feel the fat sticking to me again. Once I started losing weight from around my middle, I was amazed that I could start to feel definition around my waist again.

The main thing that has me perplexed is how my father and aunt have made it to their 80s eating whole loaves of bread in one sitting or fruit and muesli for breakfast every morning, even despite having gestational diabetes (my aunt had it). They probably have insulin resistance by now but there must be an amount of carbs that people can eat and not end up diabetic. It may have to do with the years they lived before the 1950s and the healthier fats that people were eating then vs the seed oils and processed foods that have crept in. Whereas I would have had more of the latter from earlier on and it's already catching up with me now.
 

Cocosilk

Well-Known Member
Messages
818
Type of diabetes
Gestational
Treatment type
Insulin

Thanks for sharing your journey. I've convinced my husband to go low carb and he finally has started it now - he was fed up with the 10 extra kilos that he has put on in the last couple of years and watched me drop the 5kgs that I had been holding onto since we met and started having children. The sarma is a nice low carb meal - not traditionally had without mashed potatoes though - so my husband has been visiting the toilet a bit since he had it without the usual carbs to soak up the fat.

My reason for reintroducing carbs is just a psychological need to know how bad they are for me and to see if anything has changed after a bit over a year of low carb - and it has improved I think. I ate the oats this morning and didn't even enjoy them this time - which is great news to me because in the past I always loved my porridge. This morning I had to eat an egg first because the idea of eating carbs on an empty stomach after having eggs only for breakfast for about a year just didn't sit right with me.
There are some other carbs that I miss though - I had the other one today as well - palacinke (aka crepes or pancakes) but I was happy having mine savoury and filled a small thin one with a chicken rissole and melted cheese. I really do love those and when I am really missing them, I try to make an almond meal alternative. Same goes for a piece of cake. I do nut meal cakes and they only spike me into the 6s usually.

So does beetroot, garlic and celery help lower blood pressure? I know about garlic and eat it raw periodically. Beetroot is one that I have never eaten much. The last time I made a beetroot salad the juice got in under one of my crowns and made my tooth hurt... and I haven't had any since. And celery is another one that I've never liked much. But I think I will buy some this week just to remind myself again. I don't eat as many vegetables as I feel I should. I started eating meat only meals and then having a salad later in the evening to stop me snacking on other things.

I must have to be stricter yet to get my fasting level back under 5mmol. I really haven't seen it there for a while.
And speaking of needing sleep, it's 1am here. I really ought not to be sitting in front of my screen at this hour (another vice of mine :p
 

Oldvatr

Expert
Messages
8,470
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Just posted this month, it's just the abstract.... but you get the picture.

https://www.onlinejacc.org/content/...u3FCNgGQ8vj4vjSW1xwtlWfL1uaJ9s9_YiJo-FinLbHr8
I see Jeff Volek is one of the authors. His declared interests are shown as
Research funding from foundations (Lotte & John Hecht Memorial Foundation) and industry (Metagenics, National Dairy Council/Dutch Dairy Organization, Malaysian Palm Board, Pruvit Ventures). Royalties for books on ketogenic diets. Scientific advisory board for Virta Health, UCAN, Advancing Ketogenic Therapies, Cook Keto, Axcess Global and Atkins Nutritionals. Equity in PangeaKeto. Founder, chief science officer, and equity in Virta Health.

I see other connections to Virta Health in the author list Many of the authors are directly involved with dairy or meat production, and there do not seem to be many 'independent' members.. None listing grain or agriculture connections or the non SatFat lobby. No food manufacturers. No medical advisers either. Not even Nutritionists.
Edit to add: No academics either All seem to be lay persons
Edit again: sorry there i a sub list that was hiding. They do seem to have academic ties, but no titles or qualifications declared so level of connection is not clear. Some nutritionists listed, and many are pediatricians.

There are some good references listed in this abstract. There is no discussion of what methodologies were in play when coming to the conclusions they do.

I suspect this to have serious bias in its methodologies and interpretation.

It may only be an abstract, but it speaks to me.
 
Last edited:

Mbaker

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,339
Type of diabetes
Type 2 (in remission!)
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Available fast foods in Supermarkets
Thanks for sharing your journey. I've convinced my husband to go low carb and he finally has started it now - he was fed up with the 10 extra kilos that he has put on in the last couple of years and watched me drop the 5kgs that I had been holding onto since we met and started having children. The sarma is a nice low carb meal - not traditionally had without mashed potatoes though - so my husband has been visiting the toilet a bit since he had it without the usual carbs to soak up the fat.

My reason for reintroducing carbs is just a psychological need to know how bad they are for me and to see if anything has changed after a bit over a year of low carb - and it has improved I think. I ate the oats this morning and didn't even enjoy them this time - which is great news to me because in the past I always loved my porridge. This morning I had to eat an egg first because the idea of eating carbs on an empty stomach after having eggs only for breakfast for about a year just didn't sit right with me.
There are some other carbs that I miss though - I had the other one today as well - palacinke (aka crepes or pancakes) but I was happy having mine savoury and filled a small thin one with a chicken rissole and melted cheese. I really do love those and when I am really missing them, I try to make an almond meal alternative. Same goes for a piece of cake. I do nut meal cakes and they only spike me into the 6s usually.

So does beetroot, garlic and celery help lower blood pressure? I know about garlic and eat it raw periodically. Beetroot is one that I have never eaten much. The last time I made a beetroot salad the juice got in under one of my crowns and made my tooth hurt... and I haven't had any since. And celery is another one that I've never liked much. But I think I will buy some this week just to remind myself again. I don't eat as many vegetables as I feel I should. I started eating meat only meals and then having a salad later in the evening to stop me snacking on other things.

I must have to be stricter yet to get my fasting level back under 5mmol. I really haven't seen it there for a while.
And speaking of needing sleep, it's 1am here. I really ought not to be sitting in front of my screen at this hour (another vice of mine :p
Great that you have co-opted your hubby.

I believe that the best way to manage diabetes (and other conditions) is to start with a template e.g. Dr Westman's page 4, the Atkins diet, etc and then test, test and test. The low carb / keto templates all will cover the 80 / 20 rule so it is then easy to measure via a glucose meter what really works in your personal scenario, for energy, vitality, blood sugar control, lipids etc. When you tested porridge, you needed to know the results. I used to be baby sat by a Scottish couple who did my breakfast of Scotch Porridge oats (I can taste the added sugar or was it honey now), I dropped the sugar in adulthood, but this was the last thing I let go of in my low GI days - I compare this to the salmon, egg, nuts and berries I had at midday and there is no comparison.

For me yes, garlic, beetroot and celery have either coincidentally worked or it was a mental effect of focusing on the blood pressure metric (I had tested just garlic about a year before with good results):

upload_2020-6-24_12-57-27.png


I could have taken the so called "standard of care" (pills) my Diabetes nurse wanted to take just before lock down and on my call with her on the 1st June. I really do need to root cause this though, I think it is lack of sleep and I am highly strung, in any event I am continuing these 3 cheap ingredients and hand grip exercises and know my method is better than drugs for me. I will also see what cycling HiT does to these numbers.
 

JAT1

Well-Known Member
Messages
563
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
I have found the conflicting information about fat, low carb and vegetarianism frustrating but on the positive side, it has made me focus on my own body's reactions to food and I use my gut and my meter as guide in these matters now. Before becoming type 1, I was almost a vegetarian, eating mostly veggies, fruit and grains. It was a very high carb diet. I am now low carb with lots of meat, cheese and fat. The result is my blood sugar readings are stable and never spike out of range.